Type 076 LHD/LHA discussion

by78

General
Looks like the images I attached is too blurry...

Here's the link:
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For those without an Weibo account, below are links to the seven documents in full-resolution. They are very detailed listing of subsystems of Project 076 along with budget allocations for each, which are listed in the third column of the tables (each digit represents 10000 yuan)

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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Depends on the aircraft -- after all, for this depiction it's not meant to be able to recover all sorts of aircraft (fighters, AEWC, UCAVs, COD) -- it's only meant to recover a specific category of UCAVs.
Potentially, depending on the UCAV they go for, they may not need a full sized carrier landing strip.


One other thing I would consider changing from the artist is that I think the entire "launch" section (including the jet blast deflector and full length of the catapult) can overlap partially with the landing strip, after all this thing shouldn't be intended to achieve the fixed wing launch tempo of a proper carrier and it definitely shouldn't need simultaneous recovery and take off capability (incidentally from what I've read, that is rarely done in other navies anyhow where instead flight ops are done in launch and recovery "cycles").

The depicted ship looks like it's 300m long, which is near CV-16/17 length and way too large.

Merging the launch section and the landing strip could shave off 30-40 meters in length.
Incidentally I would increase the beam/width by a bit however.


But of course all of this is speculation ++, and results merely from the recent posts about 076 being a project to expect some time in the future and that it will have a capability that is a surrogate for STOVL.

I'm puzzling over how credible it is to have an EM catapult and arresting wires.

I can see an argument for a ship which can switch between Amphibious Warfare and Sea Control.

Given China-centric scenarios, if the Type-75/76 were optimised for Amphibious warfare, it would only be used during the initial stages of an amphibious invasion, then would spend the rest of the time without much of a mission.

So it would make sense that Chinese LHD philosophy would emphasise sea control more than US LHD designs which carry a battalion of marines and emphasises a forced amphibious assault far from home.

For the 200km distance between Taiwan and Fujian, you don't really need to permanently base helicopters on a Type-76.
Helicopters can be based in Fujian and still have more than enough range to reach Taiwan.
For example, a Seahawk or Blackhawk has a range of over 600km.

So the Type-76 could be used mainly as a platform to refuel and rearm attack helicopters and UCAVs.
Intensive maintenance and repairs would be performed on mainland China, which would have the advantage of being cheaper, faster and safer than on a ship.

---

And with the advent of EM catapults, the technology risk is far lower than for steam catapults.

After all, an EM catapult system is essentially:

1. A battery system which can be placed anywhere and should be straightforward to swop out.
2. A power cable which has no moving parts as it is just a long piece of metal.
3. The EM catapult track which runs along the surface of the flight deck, which makes it easy to fix or replace.
4. The Linear Induction motor which runs along the catapult track. It's easy to swop out the motor.

Even if the EM catapult doesn't work, the Type-76 would still be able to operate fine in its primary role as a helicopter carrier.

So perhaps the Type-76 is the test system for the Chinese EM catapult?
 

weig2000

Captain
I'm puzzling over how credible it is to have an EM catapult and arresting wires.

...

For the 200km distance between Taiwan and Fujian, you don't really need to permanently base helicopters on a Type-76.
Helicopters can be based in Fujian and still have more than enough range to reach Taiwan.
For example, a Seahawk or Blackhawk has a range of over 600km.

071/075/076 will open up the opportunity for amphibious assault from the east coast of Taiwan, with the support of carrier fleet(s).
 

sequ

Major
Registered Member
For those without an Weibo account, below are links to the seven documents in full-resolution. They are very detailed listing of subsystems of Project 076 along with budget allocations for each, which are listed in the third column of the tables (each digit represents 10000 yuan)

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

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I calculated the total
1: 8580
2: 9642
3. 748
4. 17803
5. 2405
6: 8903
7: 370
Total: 48451
Total in Yuan: 48451x10000=484510000
~$70000000
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I'm puzzling over how credible it is to have an EM catapult and arresting wires.

I can see an argument for a ship which can switch between Amphibious Warfare and Sea Control.

Given China-centric scenarios, if the Type-75/76 were optimised for Amphibious warfare, it would only be used during the initial stages of an amphibious invasion, then would spend the rest of the time without much of a mission.

So it would make sense that Chinese LHD philosophy would emphasise sea control more than US LHD designs which carry a battalion of marines and emphasises a forced amphibious assault far from home.

For the 200km distance between Taiwan and Fujian, you don't really need to permanently base helicopters on a Type-76.
Helicopters can be based in Fujian and still have more than enough range to reach Taiwan.
For example, a Seahawk or Blackhawk has a range of over 600km.

So the Type-76 could be used mainly as a platform to refuel and rearm attack helicopters and UCAVs.
Intensive maintenance and repairs would be performed on mainland China, which would have the advantage of being cheaper, faster and safer than on a ship.

---

Obviously having a fixed wing combat air capability organic to an LHD increases its flexibility significantly -- not only in terms of providing strike and CAP but also in terms of ISR both in the maritime and A2A and A2G domain.
The amount of territory that a well equipped fixed wing combat aircraft can cover versus a helicopter is obviously much more significant.

The role of 075 and 076 (if the latter does emerge) also is much broader than merely Taiwan, so I don't think over thinking their role for a Taiwan contingency is that useful.
Like, yes both 075 and 076 would provide significant capabilities to a Taiwan contingency, but they're obviously not ships which are designed specifically only for a Taiwan contingency, but rather larger scale, complex amphibious assault and some sea control roles as well as at greater distances (up to blue water) ranges.



And with the advent of EM catapults, the technology risk is far lower than for steam catapults.

After all, an EM catapult system is essentially:

1. A battery system which can be placed anywhere and should be straightforward to swop out.
2. A power cable which has no moving parts as it is just a long piece of metal.
3. The EM catapult track which runs along the surface of the flight deck, which makes it easy to fix or replace.
4. The Linear Induction motor which runs along the catapult track. It's easy to swop out the motor.

Even if the EM catapult doesn't work, the Type-76 would still be able to operate fine in its primary role as a helicopter carrier.

So perhaps the Type-76 is the test system for the Chinese EM catapult?

If EM cats are fitted to 076 (and fairly quickly it seems like based on the RFP that is now a safe speculative consensus) I don't think it will be there on 076 as a piece of "test hardware" but rather as an equally key system to 076's intended various roles as the EM cat would be on 003.

We also don't exactly have a timeline for when 076 is expected -- it might be after 003.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
071/075/076 will open up the opportunity for amphibious assault from the east coast of Taiwan, with the support of carrier fleet(s).

It would, but an amphibious assault from the East makes no sense. You run straight into unpopulated forests and mountains
 

Mirabo

Junior Member
Registered Member
A rumored 076 LHA/LHD is very spicy news. Maybe this is the "075A" that we've been wondering about for months now. We can only guess as to what the 'unique solution' might be.

Personally, I don't think a CATOBAR system is out of the question. EM catapults save a lot of space compared to steam catapults as you don't need to worry about where all the piping needs to go - just lay down the electrical cabling and you're sorted. This alone already makes EMALS a sensible launch solution for a 40k ton flat-top design.

But with such a small hull, it would not be good to use J-15s for an aircraft complement. Most likely it would have to be a small or medium-sized fighter like a navalized FC-31, like how the French use Rafales on their own 40k ton flat-top. But the 4th generation carrier-based fighter project has been very quiet as of late.

If the J-XY naval fighter programme is too much of a headache, they could do away with them entirely for the time being. UCAVs would be sufficient for ASW and fire support until 'sea 4th gen' is ready.

"Solution to the country's lack of F-35B" is, in my opinion, a strong indication that we can expect the 076's airwing to eventually include some form of small/medium-sized manned multirole fighter. The real question is how the fixed-wing aircraft would be launched and recovered.

Whatever the case, the possibilities are many. There's a lot you can squeeze onto a 40k ton ship even if you only consider the flight and hangar decks! Nevermind the lower decks which will undoubtedly be vehicle storage and well deck... Whether the 076 will be CATOBAR with manned fighters, CATOBAR with UCAVs, or just an oversize helicopter mule, they are all fine guesses. And this mystery LHA/LHD is the best PLAN guessing game we've had in a long, long time.

But I think 'solution to the lack of F-35Bs' means that we can expect something much more exciting than just a regular LHA/LHD.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Obviously having a fixed wing combat air capability organic to an LHD increases its flexibility significantly -- not only in terms of providing strike and CAP but also in terms of ISR both in the maritime and A2A and A2G domain.
The amount of territory that a well equipped fixed wing combat aircraft can cover versus a helicopter is obviously much more significant.

The role of 075 and 076 (if the latter does emerge) also is much broader than merely Taiwan, so I don't think over thinking their role for a Taiwan contingency is that useful.
Like, yes both 075 and 076 would provide significant capabilities to a Taiwan contingency, but they're obviously not ships which are designed specifically only for a Taiwan contingency, but rather larger scale, complex amphibious assault and some sea control roles as well as at greater distances (up to blue water) ranges.

From a strategic perspective, given the scale of the Taiwan challenge, you wouldn't want to devote unnecessary resources to complex high-end amphibious operations for distant seas.

We can also see that the US Navy LHDs are grossly over-specified (in terms of amphibious capabilities) for what they actually end up doing in real life.

Hence the US Navy is adding AFSBs (converted tankers) to operate amphib forces in those low-threat environments.

At the same time, the US Marine Corps is moving away from large ships for high-contested amphibious operations close to a hostile shore.

And that the shortage of big carrier decks is compelling the US Navy to use those LHDs as small (expendable) carriers.

So maybe the Chinese Navy is just ahead of the game in making the LHD primarily a sea control platform, with amphibious assault a secondary role.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
A rumored 076 LHA/LHD is very spicy news. Maybe this is the "075A" that we've been wondering about for months now. We can only guess as to what the 'unique solution' might be.

Personally, I don't think a CATOBAR system is out of the question. EM catapults save a lot of space compared to steam catapults as you don't need to worry about where all the piping needs to go - just lay down the electrical cabling and you're sorted. This alone already makes EMALS a sensible launch solution for a 40k ton flat-top design.

But with such a small hull, it would not be good to use J-15s for an aircraft complement. Most likely it would have to be a small or medium-sized fighter like a navalized FC-31, like how the French use Rafales on their own 40k ton flat-top. But the 4th generation carrier-based fighter project has been very quiet as of late.

If the J-XY naval fighter programme is too much of a headache, they could do away with them entirely for the time being. UCAVs would be sufficient for ASW and fire support until 'sea 4th gen' is ready.

"Solution to the country's lack of F-35B" is, in my opinion, a strong indication that we can expect the 076's airwing to eventually include some form of small/medium-sized manned multirole fighter. The real question is how the fixed-wing aircraft would be launched and recovered.

Whatever the case, the possibilities are many. There's a lot you can squeeze onto a 40k ton ship even if you only consider the flight and hangar decks! Nevermind the lower decks which will undoubtedly be vehicle storage and well deck... Whether the 076 will be CATOBAR with manned fighters, CATOBAR with UCAVs, or just an oversize helicopter mule, they are all fine guesses. And this mystery LHA/LHD is the best PLAN guessing game we've had in a long, long time.

But I think 'solution to the lack of F-35Bs' means that we can expect something much more exciting than just a regular LHA/LHD.

If we look to future US doctrine, it envisions carriers focusing on ISR and counter-air operations.
Land-attack or anti-ship missiles are heavy, so would be launched by other platforms, as aircraft have severe restrictions on payload weight.

That would suit a small carrier which has an EMALs catapult, with a small complement of fighters and recon aircraft.

So maybe we are looking at something like the Invincible-class assault carriers, which could carry a battalion of marines, but whose primary focus was on air control operations. And yes, a larger version would look like the Charles De Gaulle CVN.
 

weig2000

Captain
It would, but an amphibious assault from the East makes no sense. You run straight into unpopulated forests and mountains

Not necessarily large-scale troop landing. Taiwan hides some of their military assets on east coast, away from the more vulnerable west coast. Chiashan Air Force Base in Hualien is an important air force base.
 
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