Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?
8 missile actually, if each missile is of the YJ-8X class.
8 missile actually, if each missile is of the YJ-8X class.
Type 022 Missile Boat
- Thread starter DPRKPTboat
- Start date
speculator
New Member
Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?
The 022 is a tiny ship and thus it will need some sort of guidence for its missiles (since the radar is also tiny). Guidence usually comes in 2 forms:
a) other surface combatents
b) naval aircraft
((The range of a data link is probably in the hundreds of kilometers (more than enough) since its basically a radio antenna.))
sooo..... at the end of the day the 022 probably won't just operate with other 022's but also other assets. thus.....will it still be effective as a surprise attack platform in blue waters?
yes and no, since the enemy might not detect the FAC (its small) thus giving it an advantage.
However.... it makes much more sense for it to hang around the coast where it could hide behind rock formations much easier than larger ships. and be used for defence. (this is done in the Scandinavian countries with similar ships ) sooo......why do you need these if you already have land based ashms?
well......ships can move, missile sites cant, so they are far less venurable to cruise missile attacks.
sooo....is their a possibility that it will be a landing craft? probably not.
The 022 is a tiny ship and thus it will need some sort of guidence for its missiles (since the radar is also tiny). Guidence usually comes in 2 forms:
a) other surface combatents
b) naval aircraft
((The range of a data link is probably in the hundreds of kilometers (more than enough) since its basically a radio antenna.))
sooo..... at the end of the day the 022 probably won't just operate with other 022's but also other assets. thus.....will it still be effective as a surprise attack platform in blue waters?
yes and no, since the enemy might not detect the FAC (its small) thus giving it an advantage.
However.... it makes much more sense for it to hang around the coast where it could hide behind rock formations much easier than larger ships. and be used for defence. (this is done in the Scandinavian countries with similar ships ) sooo......why do you need these if you already have land based ashms?
well......ships can move, missile sites cant, so they are far less venurable to cruise missile attacks.
sooo....is their a possibility that it will be a landing craft? probably not.
AmiGanguli
Junior Member
Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?
I very much disagree with this. Operating alongside larger ships would completely negate the advantages of the 022: the fleet would no longer be stealthy or fast.
Land-based air support is the way to go. They can operate 200km from shore this way, and threaten opposing forces about 300km from shore. Enough for Taiwan and enough to keep attacking navies from coming too close, but not a replacement for a bluewater navy.
... Ami.
I very much disagree with this. Operating alongside larger ships would completely negate the advantages of the 022: the fleet would no longer be stealthy or fast.
Land-based air support is the way to go. They can operate 200km from shore this way, and threaten opposing forces about 300km from shore. Enough for Taiwan and enough to keep attacking navies from coming too close, but not a replacement for a bluewater navy.
... Ami.
joshuatree
Captain
Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?
Here's a question I like to ask of those who are more knowledgeable about smaller warships. There's quite a few who feel FACs, missile boats, are obsolete and limited. But upon reading up on other navies, I came across the Finnish Navy's Hamina class. Specs are below. It is a semi-stealth missile boat with the last one just commissioned in 2006. I've always considered the Scandinavian countries to have high tech modern militaries, just perhaps not large in size. So if FACs are considered obsolete, why the Hamina class? Also, looking at the armament and sensor suite, isn't it quite overloaded and top heavy for a 250 ton boat? The Hamina class tells me the 022 can be made into a pretty decent weapon's boat if PLAN had the tech for it.
# Displacement: 250 tons
# Dimensions:
* Length: 51 m
* Width: 8.5 m
* Draft: 1.7 m
# Main engines: 2 * MTU 16V 538 TB93 diesels; 6600 kW
# Propulsion: 2 * Kamewa 90SII waterjets
# Speed: 30+ knots
# Range: 500 miles
# Armament:
* 1 * Bofors 40 mm/70 Sea Trinity (Bofors 57 mm/70 SAK Mk3 on Hanko & Tornio. Hamina will be retro-fitted))
* 2 * NSV 12,7 mm MGs
* 8-cell Denel Umkhonto-IR VLS SAM system
* 4 * Saab RBS-15 Mk3 SSM (2 * Sako twin-barrel 23 mm/87 (modified ZU-23-2) can be fitted instead of missiles)
* 4 * Saab Elma LLS-920 9-tube ASW mortars
* 1 rail for depth charges or mines (Sea Mine 2000)
# Countermeasures:
* Decoys: Philax chaff and IR flares
* Smoke system: Lacroix ATOS
* EMS: Thales Matilda radar warning system
# Electronics:
* Rheinmetall MASS (Multi Ammunition Soft-kill System)
* Saab Ceros-200 FCS
* EADS TRS-3D/16-ES multimode acquisition 3D radar
* EADS ANCS 2000 Combat Management System
* EADS MSSR 2000 I IFF
* SAGEM EOMS
* Simrad Subsea Toadfish sonar
* Finnyards Sonac/PTA towed array sonar
# Crew: 26
Here's a question I like to ask of those who are more knowledgeable about smaller warships. There's quite a few who feel FACs, missile boats, are obsolete and limited. But upon reading up on other navies, I came across the Finnish Navy's Hamina class. Specs are below. It is a semi-stealth missile boat with the last one just commissioned in 2006. I've always considered the Scandinavian countries to have high tech modern militaries, just perhaps not large in size. So if FACs are considered obsolete, why the Hamina class? Also, looking at the armament and sensor suite, isn't it quite overloaded and top heavy for a 250 ton boat? The Hamina class tells me the 022 can be made into a pretty decent weapon's boat if PLAN had the tech for it.
# Displacement: 250 tons
# Dimensions:
* Length: 51 m
* Width: 8.5 m
* Draft: 1.7 m
# Main engines: 2 * MTU 16V 538 TB93 diesels; 6600 kW
# Propulsion: 2 * Kamewa 90SII waterjets
# Speed: 30+ knots
# Range: 500 miles
# Armament:
* 1 * Bofors 40 mm/70 Sea Trinity (Bofors 57 mm/70 SAK Mk3 on Hanko & Tornio. Hamina will be retro-fitted))
* 2 * NSV 12,7 mm MGs
* 8-cell Denel Umkhonto-IR VLS SAM system
* 4 * Saab RBS-15 Mk3 SSM (2 * Sako twin-barrel 23 mm/87 (modified ZU-23-2) can be fitted instead of missiles)
* 4 * Saab Elma LLS-920 9-tube ASW mortars
* 1 rail for depth charges or mines (Sea Mine 2000)
# Countermeasures:
* Decoys: Philax chaff and IR flares
* Smoke system: Lacroix ATOS
* EMS: Thales Matilda radar warning system
# Electronics:
* Rheinmetall MASS (Multi Ammunition Soft-kill System)
* Saab Ceros-200 FCS
* EADS TRS-3D/16-ES multimode acquisition 3D radar
* EADS ANCS 2000 Combat Management System
* EADS MSSR 2000 I IFF
* SAGEM EOMS
* Simrad Subsea Toadfish sonar
* Finnyards Sonac/PTA towed array sonar
# Crew: 26
Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?
Well different sea, different navy, different armed forces and different geostrategical conditions.
You cannot look ships outside of their contest.
But even if we take them and look the two classes in comparision, Hamina class is ten times more versitile craft than Type022 and a class-room example of modern thinking of FAC philoshophies as it incorporates sensor suite comparaple to larger vessels, and most importantly, it has a SAM suite intergrated to combat data system along with modern ECM and dual purpose main gun. So taking account of all the possiple purposes that Type022 is going to come, I wonder why these solutions havent been made in China as well
It still has downfall effects like the relatively small size and that it really is hastly desinged stop-gap solution as our yards where on poor employment situation and the government decided to boost their economy by ordering them well advance than the naval planners anticipated.
But the small size is mostly dictated by our rugged coastline, and that Only possiple thread comes from this certain direction and controlling the shallow esturies and islands gives our forces a huge strategical multifier, so the vessel needs to be cabaple navigate in less than 2,5 meter depth.
But all these are due the local requirment, and rules of the FACs tactical purpose in general doesent really apply in Baltic sea This is generally aknowlidged by martime circles.
In Chinas case we are speaking of blooming economical superpower thats pure geographical size screams for blue water navy. FACs are ships for stop-gap situations and for smaller nations that cannot afford open sea precense that would make sure that Enemy doesent even get to radar coverage of their homeshores.
Well different sea, different navy, different armed forces and different geostrategical conditions.
You cannot look ships outside of their contest.But even if we take them and look the two classes in comparision, Hamina class is ten times more versitile craft than Type022 and a class-room example of modern thinking of FAC philoshophies as it incorporates sensor suite comparaple to larger vessels, and most importantly, it has a SAM suite intergrated to combat data system along with modern ECM and dual purpose main gun. So taking account of all the possiple purposes that Type022 is going to come, I wonder why these solutions havent been made in China as well
It still has downfall effects like the relatively small size and that it really is hastly desinged stop-gap solution as our yards where on poor employment situation and the government decided to boost their economy by ordering them well advance than the naval planners anticipated.
But the small size is mostly dictated by our rugged coastline, and that Only possiple thread comes from this certain direction and controlling the shallow esturies and islands gives our forces a huge strategical multifier, so the vessel needs to be cabaple navigate in less than 2,5 meter depth.
But all these are due the local requirment, and rules of the FACs tactical purpose in general doesent really apply in Baltic sea
This is generally aknowlidged by martime circles.In Chinas case we are speaking of blooming economical superpower thats pure geographical size screams for blue water navy. FACs are ships for stop-gap situations and for smaller nations that cannot afford open sea precense that would make sure that Enemy doesent even get to radar coverage of their homeshores.
Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?
Yeas. Blue water navy doesent need limited capacity littorial combatants, the essence idea of Blue water navy is useless if there is a change that enemy can get to operational reach of these gnat vessels. And PLAN is to become a blue water navy, there isent doupt of that, but they arent there yet, so therefore they need stop-gap meassures
Yeas. Blue water navy doesent need limited capacity littorial combatants, the essence idea of Blue water navy is useless if there is a change that enemy can get to operational reach of these gnat vessels. And PLAN is to become a blue water navy, there isent doupt of that, but they arent there yet, so therefore they need stop-gap meassures
Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?
So the future of 022 could be only in the export market. I have other 2 questions for you, Gollevainen:
1) Do you think the 054s the last chinese green water ship or a component to develop a blue water fleet? Seems to me that French use La Fayettes in green water role and will use Horizons and Fremms for blue waters.
2) Could be a relation between 054s and 022s? Norway navy has frigates and FACs: these ships can operate in team?
Thank you very much for your help!
So the future of 022 could be only in the export market. I have other 2 questions for you, Gollevainen:
1) Do you think the 054s the last chinese green water ship or a component to develop a blue water fleet? Seems to me that French use La Fayettes in green water role and will use Horizons and Fremms for blue waters.
2) Could be a relation between 054s and 022s? Norway navy has frigates and FACs: these ships can operate in team?
Thank you very much for your help!
Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?
well Type022 has its future as the current generation of PLAN coastal defence. As I have said, the blue water navy doesent need such units, but PLAN isent there yet.
As for type 054, you cannot look it as analog to french Lafayette as the french ship is a first of its class and Type054 is basicly (and this is bit crude generilization) a continius devolpment of Old Soviet pr.50 class SRK, ancestor to all chinese SRKs and suspequently their first modern frigate 054 wich is so in the western sense of frigate.
So in the contrary, 054A isent the last 'green water' unit, but as a first true desing that can become the mass produced bulk of the first generation of PLAN blue water strength.
well Type022 has its future as the current generation of PLAN coastal defence. As I have said, the blue water navy doesent need such units, but PLAN isent there yet.
As for type 054, you cannot look it as analog to french Lafayette as the french ship is a first of its class and Type054 is basicly (and this is bit crude generilization) a continius devolpment of Old Soviet pr.50 class SRK, ancestor to all chinese SRKs and suspequently their first modern frigate 054 wich is so in the western sense of frigate.
So in the contrary, 054A isent the last 'green water' unit, but as a first true desing that can become the mass produced bulk of the first generation of PLAN blue water strength.
joshuatree
Captain
Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?
Is the Hamina class ten times more versatile than 022 because of the sensor suite and weapons? It's got like SSM, ASW rockets, and SAM missles. If that is the case, doesn't that go against your arguments of top heavy for such a small displacement at 250 tons? Because dimension wise, I think the 022 is slightly bigger so that should compensate for the monohull vs cat arguments.
I do like the Hamina's small crew size, that works better for small FACs. I think the older type 37s has crew sizes of 60+ which is just too much in my opinion.
Why China hasn't implemented such solutions? I believe it has a lot to do with the European arms embargo coupled with China's limited development in certain equipment.
But even if we take them and look the two classes in comparision, Hamina class is ten times more versitile craft than Type022 and a class-room example of modern thinking of FAC philoshophies as it incorporates sensor suite comparaple to larger vessels, and most importantly, it has a SAM suite intergrated to combat data system along with modern ECM and dual purpose main gun. So taking account of all the possiple purposes that Type022 is going to come, I wonder why these solutions havent been made in China as well
Is the Hamina class ten times more versatile than 022 because of the sensor suite and weapons? It's got like SSM, ASW rockets, and SAM missles. If that is the case, doesn't that go against your arguments of top heavy for such a small displacement at 250 tons? Because dimension wise, I think the 022 is slightly bigger so that should compensate for the monohull vs cat arguments.
I do like the Hamina's small crew size, that works better for small FACs. I think the older type 37s has crew sizes of 60+ which is just too much in my opinion.
Why China hasn't implemented such solutions? I believe it has a lot to do with the European arms embargo coupled with China's limited development in certain equipment.