TWR and Wing Loading issues with the JF-17

Deino said:

2. Why do the Pakistani - or at least some - always expect to get "tech sharing" or even the items for free? I must admit that is a feeling I get so often at several forums (esp. PDF), it's an attitude of "we are friends, we can get everything, and everything for free ... China MUST give it to us, since we are friends".

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It's because most Pakistanis on forums (who are usually kids) think "tech sharing" is like downloading an app.

They don't understand that even if China were to "share the tech" of an AESA, or better yet, manufacturing a jet engine, Pakistan would not able to do anything with it. It requires billions invested in R&D and engineering over decades (mostly in universities.) Our defense establishment is starting to set up some of the required components. But we are very far away from "tech transfer" of top tier systems.

@Deino I'm wondering if it is better to merge this thread with the existing JF-17 thread.

siegecrossbow said:

@Deino I'm wondering if it is better to merge this thread with the existing JF-17 thread.

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If you like, please go ahead!

Mohsin77 said:

I've seen contrary reports pointing to holes in the official narrative. The F-35 skeptics are still saying the tests are being manipulated to favor the F-35, in order to mitigate the PR nightmare. e.g. the last exercise they ran vaguely stated a very high kill ratio for the F-35 with no details on what it was up against, and what role it served in the exercise. It didn't even clarify if the kill ratio was composed of air or ground targets. It's very clearly a puff piece to shore up support for this platform which has huge deficiencies.

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No, you seen LockMart and the US Military disclose issues that they have bringing this aircraft to production standard, as some would point out, the F-35 is a "child" of concurrency, in other words design is basically finished, then fine tuned as you run into issues in production, then you make changes on the line to rectify those issues... you have the option to go back and "fix" those aircraft, or place them in "test" or at least a degraded status as trainer or low level combat bird with limitations..

Neither option is perfect, but you do the best you can, to get the most "bang for your buck"!

Concurrency is supposed to give you some initial capacity prior to the completion of full developmental testing which takes years, (yes, I know the F-35 was in a very extended development, but it was a much shorter development due to concurrency...

now those contrary reports are written by the competitions little helpers, or anyone else the competition can find to denigrate LockMart in this case, that includes lots of politicians who may not have gotten the "kickbacks" they think they are entitled too.. LOL

those reports can even at times be traced back to the op-for, as the op-for minimizes the impact of your new weapon system, first to their own people, then anyone else who will listen.....

Air Force Brat said:

No, you seen LockMart and the US Military disclose issues that they have bringing this aircraft to production standard, as some would point out, the F-35 is a "child" of concurrency, in other words design is basically finished, then fine tuned as you run into issues in production, then you make changes on the line to rectify those issues... you have the option to go back and "fix" those aircraft, or place them in "test" or at least a degraded status as trainer or low level combat bird with limitations..

Neither option is perfect, but you do the best you can, to get the most "bang for your buck"!

Concurrency is supposed to give you some initial capacity prior to the completion of full developmental testing which takes years, (yes, I know the F-35 was in a very extended development, but it was a much shorter development due to concurrency...

now those contrary reports are written by the competitions little helpers, or anyone else the competition can find to denigrate LockMart in this case, that includes lots of politicians who may not have gotten the "kickbacks" they think they are entitled too.. LOL

those reports can even at times be traced back to the op-for, as the op-for minimizes the impact of your new weapon system, first to their own people, then anyone else who will listen.....

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That "production standard" has been downgraded, significantly, last I heard. Once they realized the metrics of success could not be achieved, they kept lowering the bar. This tends to happen in anything which is "too big to fail." Amazing how this one program managed to cost a trillion dollars. Shows how nonsensical the defense establishment has become over time in the US.

In any case, time will tell how effective the F-35 really is. But I'll tell ya, the F-15X program is not a good sign lol.

Mohsin77 said:

That "production standard" has been downgraded, significantly, last I heard. Once they realized the metrics of success could not be achieved, they kept lowering the bar.

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Myths and Internet Experts parroting BS.
"The Bar hasn't been lowered"
The aircraft has improved to meet it closer and closer. This by the way happened with Every modern military aircraft. F35 is on Block 3F right now Full rate production standard is set at block 4 or Block 5. As the Block changes the aircraft's capabilities grow from more integration and add ons. People assume that the full capabilities are granted on delivery that almost never happens.
We had almost the same debate elsewhere, the thing you fail to see though as that it's not a static design. And an improvement made down the line can be retrofit into an earlier airframe.
Case in point the F16, an Aircraft i know you like. At this point in F16 development the A model were deeply troubled and in US service would be retired rapidly. What happened? Improved blocks lead to a more reliable version that we know today. Concurrency is that as the Aircraft as been produced and new issues arrive they are trouble shot solved and the solutions retrofit into the existing aircraft.

Mohsin77 said:

Amazing how this one program managed to cost a trillion dollars.

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It hasn't cost a Trillion dollars yet. The Trillion dollars figure is projected from start of the program until the last airframe is retired.
It's like me calling you a millionaire because If you calculated every penny that has been spent on you by you or paid to you from the moment of conception to the moment your casket is sealed in the earth or burned and urned.

Mohsin77 said:

F-35 really is. But I'll tell ya, the F-15X program is not a good sign lol

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Which is like saying JF17 is in trouble because the Pakistanis are buying Mi35.
F15X is being pushed because the current F15C/D models are old. They were supposed to be replaced with F22 but the Politics of then made that a no go.
F35 was NEVER EVER REPLACING F15. F15X is being spun by pundits as a cure all when it's only a patch for a single problem.

Mohsin77 said:

That "production standard" has been downgraded, significantly, last I heard. Once they realized the metrics of success could not be achieved, they kept lowering the bar. This tends to happen in anything which is "too big to fail." Amazing how this one program managed to cost a trillion dollars. Shows how nonsensical the defense establishment has become over time in the US.

In any case, time will tell how effective the F-35 really is. But I'll tell ya, the F-15X program is not a good sign lol.

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I'm in full agreement with Terran as he addressed your concerns, as you fly the early pre-production aircraft, things crack and break, (case in point, Su-57), as they crack and break, you go back and address those issues on the line, in order to have a much better end product...

you were talking about addressing JF-17 issues after the first production model, so I know you are well acquainted with this process, the JF-17 will be difficult to upgrade to a significant level on the line for many reasons... the F-35 on the other hand is being up-graded and tweaked daily on the line....the beautiful thing about the F-35 is that when LockMart designed the airframe, they took the technology of the F-22, and upgraded and tweaked for instance, the aerodynamic, avionics, and coatings for example. The F-35 is a very pleasant surprise, and now that they have "opened up" the FCS, for instance an initial 5G limit has been "opened up" to a full 9G's on the A model, a reduced AOA limit, has now been opened up to 50 degrees on production standard aircraft. Those two "tweaks" bringing the F-35A up to production standard, have allowed the A model to go from a "pooch", to a "Dragon slayer"! in the ACM element, that damn thing will "turn itself inside out".... watch Dojo's display later this month!

Brumby said:

Sorry guys this may be digressing a bit from the topic. Why isn't Pakistan buying J-10C?

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Price. Pakistan could afford F-16s only because America subsidized their purchase. China, for all its present strength, is still a developing country with its own problems - even if it can help Pakistan along with subsidized J-10s, the optics look bad (why is Xi giving away fighter jets when we have poor people here, etc.) As was mentioned elsewhere in the thread, if China sees that it really needs to put its thumb on the scale, it will do so. But we aren't there yet.

To @Mohsin77, it seems that what you really want is a Block IV or V JF-17 with WS-19 (maybe even WS-19B) engines. You'll be waiting quite a while for that, I'm afraid. Even once the engine is ready, all of its production will be spoken for by the FC-31, which China really needs to equip its carrier air wings. We also run into the price problem: if you want to put all these bells and whistles on the JF-17 then it's no longer a budget fighter.

I'll venture my opinion here on what I think Pakistan needs much more than better JF-17 variants. It needs to be in a position to afford FC-31s, and for that it needs significant and sustained economic growth. To accomplish that it should abandon its policy of supporting what I'll politely call "irregular forces" like JeM, which has not only failed in advancing Pakistan's interests but harmed Pakistan more than anyone else. It has destroyed Pakistan's internal security, starved it of critically needed foreign investment, and given India casus belli on a silver platter.

Air Force Brat said:

I'm in full agreement with Terran as he addressed your concerns

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Terran can say what he wants, but according to the last DOT&E report, the F-35 again "failed to meet standards" in 2018:



Let's see how it does in 2019 lol.

Last I heard, ground staff and instructors stopped using ALIS altogether, which is supposed to be the nerve center of the entire program... not a good start to the year.

ZeEa5KPul said:

Price. Pakistan could afford F-16s only because America subsidized their purchase. China, for all its present strength, is still a developing country with its own problems - even if it can help Pakistan along with subsidized J-10s, the optics look bad (why is Xi giving away fighter jets when we have poor people here, etc.) As was mentioned elsewhere in the thread, if China sees that it really needs to put its thumb on the scale, it will do so. But we aren't there yet.

To @Mohsin77, it seems that what you really want is a Block IV or V JF-17 with WS-19 (maybe even WS-19B) engines. You'll be waiting quite a while for that, I'm afraid. Even once the engine is ready, all of its production will be spoken for by the FC-31, which China really needs to equip its carrier air wings. We also run into the price problem: if you want to put all these bells and whistles on the JF-17 then it's no longer a budget fighter.

I'll venture my opinion here on what I think Pakistan needs much more than better JF-17 variants. It needs to be in a position to afford FC-31s, and for that it needs significant and sustained economic growth. To accomplish that it should abandon its policy of supporting what I'll politely call "irregular forces" like JeM, which has not only failed in advancing Pakistan's interests but harmed Pakistan more than anyone else. It has destroyed Pakistan's internal security, starved it of critically needed foreign investment, and given India casus belli on a silver platter.

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I agree, let's see how the block development goes. It's possible the Block 3 will be the final block, and then the PAF will move on to the new "Project AZM" which is probably going to be along the lines of an FC-31 version.

As for the JeM issue, we have learned from that mistake. We actually stopped sending irregular forces into Kashmir many years ago. Today we just offer support to the indigenous fighters who are local Kashmiris. And even that support is very limited now. Indian propaganda makes it seem like we're still up to no good (like we were in the 80s/90s) but despite their claims, a lot has changed. Even some Indians realize this, and this is evident if you listen to their analysts. The Kashmir problem of today, is of India's own making.