TWR and Wing Loading issues with the JF-17

gelgoog said:

I am not an expert on that. But IIRC the Pakistani government is trying to reduce the number of combat platforms to keep costs down. It also wants to build its own equipment. Probably to increase self-reliance and also to reduce costs. That is the likely reason why the J-10 has not been purchased so far despite the Chinese trying to sell it more than once.

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Most air forces are. But phasing there fighter fleet to a three type formation Trainer, light JF17, Medium JF10 would take years as they establish a line and start transition training.
It could be that as long as they can get F16 they will prefer it. As it matches the top machines India can field.
But if India gets F21 I almost guarantee a hard push to J10.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Most air forces are. But phasing there fighter fleet to a three type formation Trainer, light JF17, Medium JF10 would take years as they establish a line and start transition training.
It could be that as long as they can get F16 they will prefer it. As it matches the top machines India can field.
But if India gets F21 I almost guarantee a hard push to J10.

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Well India already has the Rafale which fulfills the role of a medium weight fighter. But it is a question whether India would get more of them in the future, some may cite the expensive price tag on the plane as an obstacle , but given India's propensity to balloon the price on almost anything due to sheer red tape, I have no confidence that the F21 would prove to be any more cheaper in that regard.

I point to that less due to the generation of fighter more because sustainment of the type would suddenly run through New Delhi.

Mohsin77 said:

But is that even possible at this stage?

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New engine, new combat electronics, new wing, aerodynamic improvements, new structure...
What's old then?

You're asking for almost new aircraft, like gripen C/D->E/F

Or F/A18C/D to F/A18E and F
It could be done but if you are on a budget and don't want to spend tons of cash on R&D you hit a wall.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

This is a myth. Take another look at the Grippen, Rafale, Typhoon, F35 The latest off the line are all very maneuverable machines. The training is also working to maintain DACT.

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I was mostly pointing to the F-35 program. And yes, I agree the Viper is a "wonder" of aviation... because it was designed from the outset as a pure dog-fighter... Only the Raptor could finally exceed it. I guess the dream of matching those characteristics for a domestic fighter for the PAF will have to wait... possibly a long time. I hope "Project Azm" which the PAF has started takes this into account right from the beginning.

Mohsin77 said:

I was mostly pointing to the F-35 program.

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Then you are misinformed. F35 has shown excellent maneuvering and turning. On par if not better than F16. Claims to the contrary are backed by dated test data from early flight tests with a overly reduced flight control regime.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Then you are misinformed. F35 has shown excellent maneuvering and turning. On par if not better than F16. Claims to the contrary are backed by dated test data from early flight tests with a overly reduced flight control regime.

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I've seen contrary reports pointing to holes in the official narrative. The F-35 skeptics are still saying the tests are being manipulated to favor the F-35, in order to mitigate the PR nightmare. e.g. the last exercise they ran vaguely stated a very high kill ratio for the F-35 with no details on what it was up against, and what role it served in the exercise. It didn't even clarify if the kill ratio was composed of air or ground targets. It's very clearly a puff piece to shore up support for this platform which has huge deficiencies.

Brumby said:

Sorry guys this may be digressing a bit from the topic. Why isn't Pakistan buying J-10C?

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The J10 is not easy to clear for export. There has been some offering rumors, they include high price, side concessions (like oil field ownership) and no tech sharing. Besides these seem to be J10 export versions, not J10C.

J10C would probably only be exported if the situation between Pakistan and India becomes so untenable that China feels Pakistan needs a trump card for deterrence.

OnT: The JF-17 is a much lighter aircraft than the F-16, they are not of the same weight class.

JF-17 is really for Pakistan to improve their aircraft technology and become more self reliant.

It is not designed to evenly fight with 4.5gen like the F-21, Su30MKI etc. However, it’s EW capability should be quite high, which could let it pull off surprise attacks.

Biscuits said:

The J10 is not easy to clear for export. There has been some offering rumors, they include high price, side concessions (like oil field ownership) and no tech sharing. Besides these seem to be J10 export versions, not J10C.

J10C would probably only be exported if the situation between Pakistan and India becomes so untenable that China feels Pakistan needs a trump card for deterrence.
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Just two points:

1. The J-10C is ready for export as the J-10CE as shown at Zhuhai

2. Why do the Pakistani - or at least some - always expect to get "tech sharing" or even the items for free? I must admit that is a feeling I get so often at several forums (esp. PDF), it's an attitude of "we are friends, we can get everything, and everything for free ... China MUST give it to us, since we are friends".

Deino