Turkey Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

sequ

Major
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Nothing official yet but possibly the "hybrid air defence system" with 4 AESA radars, 1 FCR, 1 35mm gun, 4x sungur MANPADS and 4x SAM.

We'll probably soon hear more about it.
It's the Nokta air defence system:

Images of ASELSAN's newly developed Nokta Air Defense (NHS) System were shared on social media. The system consists of both missile and cannon components.
Photos of the newly developed system were shared by a social media user named Andrei. In the shared images, it was seen that the air defense system contained both air defense missiles and air defense artillery.
According to the information obtained by SavunmaSanayiST.com; The name of this system is the Point Air Defense (NHS) System. The missiles seen in the NHS System are the land-launched version of the GÖKDOĞAN BVR Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM) developed by TÜBİTAK-SAGE. On the other hand, the system includes the GÖKER 35mm Multi-Purpose Weapon System.
The NHS System includes the AKR Fire Control Radar developed by ASELSAN with a range of 80 kilometers. In addition, there are AESA Radars around the 8×8 vehicle, which is the carrier element of the Nokta Air Defense System, to perform target detection. ASELSAN-NHS On the other hand, the vehicle in question has an 'autonomous' structure, just like the Autonomous HİSAR-A+. In other words, it can engage alone, without the need for any additional elements. The system is expected to have a maximum effective range of 30-40 kilometers against air elements with GÖKDOĞAN Missiles. Thanks to the air defense cannon it contains, the NHS will be able to engage in very low-altitude air targets. With the NHS System, Turkey will have developed a system similar to the Russian Federation's Pantsir Air Defense System. However, it can already be said that the NHS System will be more effective thanks to both the radar systems it contains and the GÖKDOĞAN Missile.

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And another concept from Aselsan:


And also a CIWS system:

 
Last edited:

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
It's the Nokta air defence system:

Images of ASELSAN's newly developed Nokta Air Defense (NHS) System were shared on social media. The system consists of both missile and cannon components.
Photos of the newly developed system were shared by a social media user named Andrei. In the shared images, it was seen that the air defense system contained both air defense missiles and air defense artillery.
According to the information obtained by SavunmaSanayiST.com; The name of this system is the Point Air Defense (NHS) System. The missiles seen in the NHS System are the land-launched version of the GÖKDOĞAN BVR Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM) developed by TÜBİTAK-SAGE. On the other hand, the system includes the GÖKER 35mm Multi-Purpose Weapon System.
The NHS System includes the AKR Fire Control Radar developed by ASELSAN with a range of 80 kilometers. In addition, there are AESA Radars around the 8×8 vehicle, which is the carrier element of the Nokta Air Defense System, to perform target detection. ASELSAN-NHS On the other hand, the vehicle in question has an 'autonomous' structure, just like the Autonomous HİSAR-A+. In other words, it can engage alone, without the need for any additional elements. The system is expected to have a maximum effective range of 30-40 kilometers against air elements with GÖKDOĞAN Missiles. Thanks to the air defense cannon it contains, the NHS will be able to engage in very low-altitude air targets. With the NHS System, Turkey will have developed a system similar to the Russian Federation's Pantsir Air Defense System. However, it can already be said that the NHS System will be more effective thanks to both the radar systems it contains and the GÖKDOĞAN Missile.

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And another concept from Aselsan:

Just saying "nokta" is "dot" or "point".

It seems the system is at an early concept stage. The use of 4 small AESA radars for target acquisition instead of the higher rotating array is weird. I think AESAs are the fire control radars. The rotating array on top would be the target acquisition radar in that case. That would make a lot more sense for many reasons

360 degree AESA tracking, BVRAAM, IIR guided MANPADS, AHEAD 35 mm make this a much higher end system than the Pantsir. Pantsir is crippled by low range and command guided missiles.
 

pmc

Major
Registered Member
360 degree AESA tracking, BVRAAM, IIR guided MANPADS, AHEAD 35 mm make this a much higher end system than the Pantsir. Pantsir is crippled by low range and command guided missiles.
Pantsir is continuously upgraded. It now has hypersonic missiles and presumably radars upgraded to deal with so many simultaneous engagements and small drones. Anything that is used in Middleast will have upgrade path faster than anything in most cases.
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As stated by Rosoboronexport during the Army-2021 Forum in August, the first contract for the Pantsir-S1M was signed with an unspecified customer
 

Stealthflanker

Senior Member
Registered Member
It seems the system is at an early concept stage. The use of 4 small AESA radars for target acquisition instead of the higher rotating array is weird. I think AESAs are the fire control radars. The rotating array on top would be the target acquisition radar in that case. That would make a lot more sense for many reasons

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Do you mean this ? Well the radar on top is Dedicated gunfire control radar not acquisition radar. You dont usually have circular radar for search as it produces pencil beamwidth, that is more suitable for the gunfire or missile tracking radar.

You dont need AESA or even phased array in that matter if you are just using it for gunnery. as to be a gun fire control radar you only need about 1 deg of beamwidth and accuracy of afaik 0.01 mrad which easily achievable and much lower in cost with simple reflector or inverse cassegrain antenna, thus why you see things like Skyshield nt going phased array.

You only go phased array if you desire :
-Rapid target update speed
-Multiple target tracking
-Multiple target engagement

and for that matter you go AESA if you desire reliability and if you hate tubes. Otherwise a PESA is fine and can do the same job much cheaper.


360 degree AESA tracking, BVRAAM, IIR guided MANPADS, AHEAD 35 mm make this a much higher end system than the Pantsir. Pantsir is crippled by low range and command guided missiles.

Since there are 2 concepts being presented. It shows the "Dilemma" or "Compromise" That the AA system designer faced when designing this thing. You may notice them

The first ConceptThe second
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The first is the AESA concept and the 2nd is something more akin to the Pantsyr, or tunguska especially the 2nd Iteration that still using Roman/Shlem radar.

One thing about putting phased array and active guidance missile or even passive one in that matters are cost. AESA cost and lots of it. Adding the active radar homing missiles means putting additional cost of the missile which might not have range when it's instead being carried by airborne platform. The size and weight of the missile may also put constraint to the platform and as you see the First concept only carries like 4 missiles.

If one wish to maximize the number of targets being engaged and make use of the AESA's multi-target engagement capability, one can easily forego the gun part and instead making something like BukM3 Viking.

The second concept represent the "cheaper" options and puts the "more complicated" phased array only in the rotating one. The fire control radar is located the same way as Pantsyr/Tunguska and only. This concept might not only be cheaper but also easier to build. But then as you said it could suffer from lack of multiple target channels. Thus only single target engagement is possible.

You can't really blame command guidance as :
1.It produces the lowest cost missile you can get
2.It also produces light and small missile, thus you can carry more
3.For pantsyr case, the light and small missile easily be made Hypersonic and therefore long range variant can be produced

Which a case for pantsyr with its latest missile which being smaller but larger booster and it can reach 40 Km range.

The Pantsyr is the result of what's in mind of Russian designer after looking at Tunguska. The provided the multi-target engagement capability by having the PESA radar doing both target tracking and missile guidance and at the same time making the system does not cost an arm and a leg for just a Terminal defense and CRAM system.

There are still however limitations in number of target channels as it related to the number of frequencies available or timing resources of the radar, still it provided better options than the Tunguska baseline and some Western alternative like Roland but well Roland is more comparable to Osa.
 

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
Do you mean this ? Well the radar on top is Dedicated gunfire control radar not acquisition radar. You dont usually have circular radar for search as it produces pencil beamwidth, that is more suitable for the gunfire or missile tracking radar.
I thought they separated TA and FC functions. It seems that the radar on top is really a gunnery radar. Because I see the exact same radar in SPAAG Korkut too. ASELSAN page mostly talks about gunnery applications too. This is different from the Pantsir.

Pantsir uses the same radar for both missile guidance and gunnery. The rotating radar on top works for just TA. It kinda has to because command guidance demands constant updates and high resolution track by the launcher. If your missiles can track their target on their own (as in active radar and IR guidance) you can get away with a much lower refresh rate and resolution. You can even stop tracking after a point. Sungur MANPADS has IIR and Gokdogan has active radar. I guess this enables them to use the said AESAs for both functions easily. You don't need very high resolution in that case.
You can't really blame command guidance as :
1.It produces the lowest cost missile you can get
2.It also produces light and small missile, thus you can carry more
3.For pantsyr case, the light and small missile easily be made Hypersonic and therefore long range variant can be produced
I disagree with this. Command-only guidance is a very outdated approach in 2023. It is jamming prone and constraints targeting a lot. Command guidance and a single FC radar pretty much mean you can only engage a single direction at once. I heard this was exploited a lot by TB-2s in Libya and Syria. Command guidance has no meaningful size and weight advantages either. IIR is compact. There are no ways Turkey will field a SAM system with command-guided missiles.
 

Stealthflanker

Senior Member
Registered Member
If your missiles can track their target on their own (as in active radar and IR guidance) you can get away with a much lower refresh rate and resolution. You can even stop tracking after a point. Sungur MANPADS has IIR and Gokdogan has active radar. I guess this enables them to use the said AESAs for both functions easily. You don't need very high resolution in that case.

and you can get away with a cannon in that respect and instead can concentrate on maximizig the number of missiles your system carry. Which brought you a Tor or Iron Dome. And if you were indeed wanting to make a full use of the Self guided feature, why not also do away the radar as radar represent active emitting source which may attract Anti radiation missile or ESM.

You can rely entirely on external designation to target the missile. Your system cost may in turn mostly on the missile and related electronics. Can get even cheaper than NASAMS yet Turkey doesnt seem to consider that.

I disagree with this. Command-only guidance is a very outdated approach in 2023. It is jamming prone and constraints targeting a lot. Command guidance and a single FC radar pretty much mean you can only engage a single direction at once. I heard this was exploited a lot by TB-2s in Libya and Syria. Command guidance has no meaningful size and weight advantages either. IIR is compact. There are no ways Turkey will field a SAM system with command-guided missiles.

Well outdated maybe but you can get much lower missile price, and jamming immunity is lies on the radar and phased array is usually much harder to jam than reflector. Command guidance missile can easily be made hypersonic and kill the target faster therefore quickly freeing the target channel to engage other target.

IIR is compact but then, does it provide all weather capability ? as for a terminal defense system, you are expected to engage target that flies below the cloud, in the tropospheric soup and i dont really see IIR can offer advantage compared to command guidance. Like you see French are still happy with their Command guidance Crotale NG.

I would believe it's more of a cost vs capability issues. Like what kind of threat you were expecting. If one wish to raise the bar so high that the system is also meant to engage standoff weapon firing UAV. Will the resulting system be affordable to export or can it be built in sufficient number for the role intended.

and if it use Turkey locally produced missile, will Turkey be also able to manufacture enough numbers of it to make use of economic of scale to lower the cost of the missile. Or does it able to use Foreign missile like AMRAAM or Sidewinder.
 

pmc

Major
Registered Member
If one wish to maximize the number of targets being engaged and make use of the AESA's multi-target engagement capability, one can easily forego the gun part and instead making something like BukM3 Viking.
missiles have minimum altitude and distance engagement limitations and can easily run out of it. than there is reliability issue with so many near simultaneous missile launches. so gun is essential. near horizontal launch of missiles with fast acceleration. this is last few seconds in defence.
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The newer Pantsir has AI and much more advanced network communication that make the radar at last movement. and this gun range is 5km that gives time to whether to use missile or gun for interception.
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