Trade War with China

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LesAdieux

Junior Member
I suggest we stop interacting with Josh Luo. He doesn't seem able to take in any meaningful discussion and is only keen on spreading more and more propaganda without providing facts and a basis for his arguments.

I don't know why there is a need to continue responding to his comment as such.

Let's do more meaningful discussion instead of keep on repeating the same old propaganda.


the guy thinks and reasons like a badly abused sex slave, full of fear, all she knows is that if she doesn't do whatever she is told, she will face grave consequences, and she is willing to do whatever to avoid that.
 

Just4Fun

Junior Member
Registered Member
First of all, I doubt it will happen anytime soon. Americans, especially Trump's voters, are angry. They are not just angry over China, they are angry that foreigner are taking over their jobs. Why do you think TPP got cancelled by Trump so quickly after he got into the WH? TPP was supposed to contain China, but the US would have to cede some interests to other countries in the TPP. It got abolished, by not just Trump but also the democrats, precisely because Americans do not want to cede any interest to any other country anymore. Be it MAGA or America First, the underlying logic is the same - America is bleeding, Americans are bleeding, and they want to stop this. China got targeted the most because it's deemed as the greatest perpetrator, but that doesn't mean other countries are seen as "innocent". Remember, Trump is still threatening to place auto-tariffs on Europe and Japan, because auto workers in the US feel like they are getting ripped off by Europe and Japan.

As long as the underlying economic condition still prevails, the voter base will not change. If the voting base doesn't change, it will not be possible for America to return to the days where it can freely give out benefit just so that allies can follow it.

1) Americans are angry because the US is in decline. When a country / company / family is in the course of decline, few people will be happy. Be sympathetic and be more sensitive.

2) The reasons why Trump killed TPP was not purely his love of job creation as he claimed. He kill it mainly because it is a multiparty treaty. From Trump's prospective, a multiparty treaty is far more difficult to manage than a bilateral treaty in his trade deficit fight. Trump's ultimate goal (but also unstated goal) is to match each country's export surplus quota with its economic size. In this way, the US can force each country to reduce its exports to the US according to their bilateral trade treaty. Therefore, the US will be trade deficit-free forever, thus the dollar can be world currency forever.

It sounds fantastic, but will only be a pipe-dream in reality. The biggest problem of this bilateral treaty regime is that it may in fact hurt dollar hegemony badly. The US's total market capacity is too small in relation to the total output of world economy. Those who are not allowed to export their products to the US market to their export potential will naturally search for other markets to export, and those who need imports for their economic development will buy no matter who sell. This will stimulate the setup of extra-US markets, and extra-US markets will encourage the use of none-dollar currencies. This in turn will weaken dollar's position as a world currency, loosing dollar's control to world trade.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
The trade war could leave Huawei smartphones frozen in time without core technology from the US
  • The crown jewel of Chinese tech will need more than its vaunted ‘wolf culture’ to stay innovative, given the US freeze on technologies that are key to reaching the top of the smartphone game
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Published: 3:00am, 12 Jun, 2019

When Huawei’s smartphone shipments overtook Apple’s iPhone sales in the second quarter of last year, the Chinese
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of unseating Samsung and becoming the world’s No 1 smartphone maker by 2020 seemed on track. Then, last month, the US government banned Huawei and its affiliates from purchasing American components and software without a licence, the latest move in a continuing campaign by Washington to punish the company for alleged theft of trade secrets and violating US sanctions on Iran.

One by one, Huawei began losing access to the technologies it needed to stay in the race as a top smartphone brand, including Google’s Android operating system, ARM Holdings’ processor cores and, most recently, preloaded Facebook apps.

In the spirit of its famed “wolf culture”, Huawei fought back. Chairman and founder Ren Zhengfei and his lieutenants shrugged off the ban, saying the company had
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for such an eventuality by stockpiling components and designing more of its own chips.
The company also confirmed it was developing its own
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and had trademarked the name
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in Europe, where Huawei phones took one-third of the market in 2018.

In particular, Huawei’s wholly owned chip design company HiSilicon was touted as key to the company’s tech independence from the US because it produces devices ranging from the Kirin processors that power Huawei’s smartphones to chipsets used in its 5G base stations.

In a memo circulated to employees the day after the US ban was announced, HiSilicon President Teresa He Tingbo said that years of effort had gone into preparing “
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” that would “ensure the strategic safety of most of the company’s products and the continuous supply of most products”.

It was a nice morale booster for the troops but belied the reality of Huawei’s dependence on US core technology. HiSilicon engineers design their chips with electronic design automation (EDA) software from US companies and depend on American manufacturing equipment to etch the circuits onto silicon wafers.

Four years ago, after HiSilicon successfully produced a state-of-the-art circuit design, a senior R&D executive at the company highlighted the importance of its technology partnerships with US EDA vendors Synopsys, Cadence Design Systems and Mentor Graphics, as well as Taiwan wafer foundry TSMC.

“We had close collaboration with TSMC and EDA, that’s the most important thing … They supported us to cross that chasm,” said Daniel Yanqiu Diao, who spoke during a panel session at the 2015 Design Automation Conference in Las Vegas, the annual confab for EDA boffins.

That chasm just got much wider. Without continuing technical support from its overseas EDA partners, HiSilicon’s smartphone chips will be frozen in time, unable to take advantage of technical advances.

Four years ago, after HiSilicon successfully produced a state-of-the-art circuit design, a senior R&D executive at the company highlighted the importance of its technology partnerships with US EDA vendors Synopsys, Cadence Design Systems and Mentor Graphics, as well as Taiwan wafer foundry TSMC.

“We had close collaboration with TSMC and EDA, that’s the most important thing … They supported us to cross that chasm,” said Daniel Yanqiu Diao, who spoke during a panel session at the 2015 Design Automation Conference in Las Vegas, the annual confab for EDA boffins.

That chasm just got much wider. Without continuing technical support from its overseas EDA partners, HiSilicon’s smartphone chips will be frozen in time, unable to take advantage of technical advances.

There have been attempts by China to secure advanced chip design technology. In 2017, Chinese steel magnate Jingyuan Han bankrolled the purchase of EDA assets from the bankrupt California company ATop Tech, a rival of Synopsys, which flagged the deal as a potential national security risk.

CFIUS, the US agency that reviews foreign acquisitions, did not conduct a formal review and the deal went through. However, the new Chinese owners of ATop’s EDA tools won’t be able to help HiSilicon because the software is of US origin and still subject to the Trump ban.

TSMC, the subcontractor that makes chips for HiSilicon and US semiconductor companies like Qualcomm and Nvidia, operates production lines using gear from Applied Materials, Lam Research and KLA-Tencor, three Silicon Valley companies that together account for 40 per cent of the global wafer manufacturing equipment market.

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TSMC said last week it can still
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with chips without violating the US order, though, if push came to shove, the Taiwan foundry would have to fall in line with Washington given that it, too, needs US core technology to survive.
Huawei’s 5G business, which Washington views as a national security threat, faces a similar challenge because its networking gear uses semiconductors and other speciality components from US companies.

If Huawei’s overseas consumers shun the brand because it cannot offer popular Western apps – and there are reports this is already happening in Europe – that will cut into profits the company would need to fund R&D for its 5G ambitions.

Huawei's best hope in the short term may be a truce brokered by Presidents Xi Jinping and Donald Trump at the G20 summit in Japan this month.

That could take the form of a ZTE-like reprieve. In April last year, Huawei’s crosstown rival ZTE was slapped with a similar US ban for breaching terms of a sanctions settlement involving Iran. The ban was lifted after the company paid a
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and agreed to change its top management and install a compliance team appointed by the US. Huawei, though, is unlikely to roll over, given its wolf culture and military mindset imbued by founder Ren’s days as a soldier in the People’s Liberation Army. The company has a long track record of going “all in” to defeat opponents.

After Trump blocked Huawei from selling its gear to US government agencies, Ren should have strategically retreated so the company could live to fight another day.

Instead, Huawei upped the ante by suing the US government to try to overturn the ban. Huawei also provoked Trump – well known as anti-Obama on everything – by hiring former Obama administration cybersecurity expert Samir Jain to lobby on its behalf.

When a Fox News guest questioned whether Jain’s work for Huawei amounted to treason, Trump tweeted: “This is not good, or acceptable!”
In the early days of Huawei, one of Ren’s most popular motivational slogans was: “We shall drink to our heart’s content to celebrate our success, but if we should fail let’s fight to our utmost until we all die.”

The success came two days before last Christmas when Huawei said it had shipped a record
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smartphones in 2018, but the celebration was short-lived. Within five months, Ren and his lieutenants were facing the full force of the United States government. The fight to the end has come sooner than they expected.

Craig Addison is a senior production editor on the Post’ s technology desk. From 2002 to 2009, he worked for SEMI, the Silicon Valley-based trade group representing semiconductor equipment and materials companies. Follow on Twitter @craigaddison

@Josh Luo
Im surprised you have not noticed the 'Is the US shooting itself in the foot by banning Huawei' thread.
Yo0u should spend some time reading through the thread thorooughly and you will find the points raised by the writer of the above article delt with completely..
There are also associated threads which are worth visiting .
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Do you mean that you are advocating for promotion of middle class rather than promoting free markets as the goal? Of course, having a healthy middle class that can drive economic growth via consumption should be an end goal, but promoting free markets is a very necessary step to make that happen.

The "free market " is not a magic word that make a country rich.

It is even not necessary to have the "planned economy" on the opposite end of spectrum.

In the CCCP planed economy everyone know what to do.

In a non planed economy no one know what to do from a central authority, only how.

Now, the difference between Nigeria , USA and Switzerland is the rules of how, and the enforcement of them.


However, practically there is no "free " economy, the dominant / monopolistic market participants can keep all potential entrepreneur and the workforce of them in-house, out of the reach of market forces, and can "plan" what to do and how, so the works of the IT markets, or wall mart, amazon , google , retail banking and so on is more similar to the works of CCCP than to a free market.

The rules and enforcement of market dictate the advancement level of an economy, NOT the "freeness " of it.

The US / UK is an attractive target of investment due to the cheap , simple and efficient legal system and background, not because there is more freedom to start a business than say in Yemen .


I saw the above in work many time in companies employing of 1000s.

IF the value stream of the company is relativly simple, and one person can understand it then he/she can manage it with moderate efficiency, and can run the business with profit.

But time passed , and more product with more complexity, common processes and so on joined the company, and the complexity of system reach a level when the best genius can not understand it any more.

And the business collapsing, the profitability fall, quality problems arising.

The solution for this is to create internal rules and ways to run the business, so not to tell what to do, only how, and the job of managers should not be to tell what to do every day/week, bot how to do ( training and supervision development rather micro/macro management of activities ).


This kind of stuff is the reason of efficiency differences between the Chinese/ USA/UK/Polish/French/Russian companies.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Just saying. Things do not look very optimistic about China in the trade war. Trump has hit the country where it is the most vulnerable. Yes, China has become a peer competitor of the U.S., but the U.S. has clearly found China's vulnerabilities and is hitting hard with "maximum pressure" tactics. This includes tacitly stating Taiwan (
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) as a country without formal recognition while denying China access to the nuts and bolts of its high-tech industries. The U.S. has great leverages over China, and I am afraid Chinese leaders were blinded by the temporary U.S. "decline" following the 2008 Financial Crisis. When push comes to shove, the U.S. still has the most capable military in the world and would not hesitate to take all actions necessary (like "murdering" Huawei and possibly sabotaging China's domestic stability and economy) in order to maintain its hegemony. Yes, the U.S. started the Trade War. Perhaps the CCP could have been a bit more humble and avoid leadership roles after 2008. China could still buy access to oils and gas without proclaiming bombastic titles like "Belt and Road." It could have more covertly subsidized its high-tech sector without proclaiming the "Made in China 2025" phrase. The international system has never been fair or just, but the CCP could have been a little bit smarter.

China has widened the trade deficit gap, and data indicates most damage from the trade war has been tanked by US consumers followed by US producers. America has momentum on it’s side, but not much else. The attack on Huawei has so far been an embarrassing failure, and Trump has also alienated the Silicon Valley lobby.

While China has been slow to respond (probably due to legal quagmire), it is now moving on the way towards cutting off America’s critical imports, a move far more devastating than any disruption against Chinese factories in America Trump can perform, as sectors across the board (such as pharma, electronics and EV) are reliant, rather than lone companies.

The current trade war is only slightly in China’s favor, but this is with America applying maximum pressure and China only responding with minimum pressure. Once the relevant legal framework is laid down, it is unlikely that America can resist maximum pressure.

The greatest danger is that an overreaction in the trade war could lead into America having no choices but the military option. US military is still far larger, and as WW2 has shown “wonder weapons” and technology is not necessary enough to hold back against a much larger force. Unlike Germany through, China has a vibrant industry backing it up. Neither does it lack manpower, so at least in theory, it would not suffer the same sort of shortages.
 
1) Americans are angry because the US is in decline. When a country / company / family is in the course of decline, few people will be happy. Be sympathetic and be more sensitive.

2) The reasons why Trump killed TPP was not purely his love of job creation as he claimed. He kill it mainly because it is a multiparty treaty. From Trump's prospective, a multiparty treaty is far more difficult to manage than a bilateral treaty in his trade deficit fight. Trump's ultimate goal (but also unstated goal) is to match each country's export surplus quota with its economic size. In this way, the US can force each country to reduce its exports to the US according to their bilateral trade treaty. Therefore, the US will be trade deficit-free forever, thus the dollar can be world currency forever.

It sounds fantastic, but will only be a pipe-dream in reality. The biggest problem of this bilateral treaty regime is that it may in fact hurt dollar hegemony badly. The US's total market capacity is too small in relation to the total output of world economy. Those who are not allowed to export their products to the US market to their export potential will naturally search for other markets to export, and those who need imports for their economic development will buy no matter who sell. This will stimulate the setup of extra-US markets, and extra-US markets will encourage the use of none-dollar currencies. This in turn will weaken dollar's position as a world currency, loosing dollar's control to world trade.

People need to remember the underlying issues of the downsides/flaws and social impacts of global trade/finance/economics, power politics and governance, wealth/opportunity inequality, etc. all exist both internationally and within countries, it is both unsurprising yet still disappointing to see the most powerful/wealthy countries, elites handling these issues poorly/insufficiently/not handling them rather choosing to let these problems fester and have more conflict instead.
 

MrCrazyBoyRavi

Junior Member
Registered Member
Regarding huwawei OS and appstore. Lets say even if huawei manage to create OS and appstore , Can’t US simply block the payment system for huawei appstore for international users? Since all international transcation has to go through US banks and institutions.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Regarding huwawei OS and appstore. Lets say even if huawei manage to create OS and appstore , Can’t US simply block the payment system for huawei appstore for international users? Since all international transcation has to go through US banks and institutions.

No one ever uses an US bank anymore, Americans citizens become unable to purchase outside of their country, the US enters into a Great Depression that makes the original one look like a boom.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Tour of China shows a Nation Girding for Protracted Trade War
Bloomberg

President Donald Trump is eager to crow about the economic weapon he wielded against Mexico to win concessions on immigration: “Tariffs are a great negotiating tool,” he declared Tuesday.

Now, Trump says, it’s China’s turn to cower. Yet to visit China these days is to encounter the limits of his punch-them-in-the-nose strategy. Even as Trump threatens to raise import duties to painful levels, 10 days of meetings with Chinese officials, academics, entrepreneurs and venture capitalists revealed a nation rewriting its relationship with the U.S. and preparing to ride out a trade war.

Trump is seeking to increase pressure on Xi Jinping, his Chinese counterpart, before this month’s G-20 summit, but Trump may already have pushed too far. Last month, Xi exhorted his countrymen to a second Long March, an echo of Mao’s seminal strategy to preserve the communist revolution. What Xi didn’t say was that the new march -- this time in the service of China’s own model of capitalism -- is already underway.

“This is definitely an inflection point,’’ said Tom Liu, chief executive officer of Shanghai-based data company ChinaScope Financial Ltd. ”People are seeing an indefinite trade shock.’’ And they are planning for it.

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