Trade War with China

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CMP

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What about the relative bargaining position of the two economic superpowers? Views on the distribution of strengths and weaknesses between America and China also differ.
According to
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, the American negotiating team has underestimated China’s resilience. True, growth is slower than in the past, but (i) this is not due to American actions on trade and (ii) Beijing still has ample political and economic space at its disposal to pursue its long-term development strategy – differently from Washington.

While exports to the US fell by 3% on an annual basis in December and January, exports to the rest of the world continued to expand. Lower reserve requirements for Chinese banks will also foster credit growth and investment, which is already much higher than in the US (44 % versus 21% of GDP), despite the fact that American capital stock is older and in greater need of replacement. Furthermore, current US growth rates are mostly driven by short-term factors, such as tax cuts, whose positive effect will shortly fade away, exposing the structural weaknesses of the American economy and its trade deficit vis-a-vis more than 100 countries, beside China.

This last point is also highlighted by
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: the American trade deficit is not limited to transactions with China (although it represented two thirds of the total in 2017), and even if China wisely agreed to reduce its current bilateral surplus by increasing its purchases of US products, this would merely shift the distribution of an overall unchanged US trade deficit. On top of that, the critical issue between the two countries is not their trade imbalance but the forced technology transfer from American to Chinese companies, in spite of Xi Jinping’s reassurances to former US president Barack Obama in 2015. Addressing this long-lasting breach of WTO rules should represent the top priority for the American administration.

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, however, convey a substantially different picture of China’s strength and stability. President Xi Jinping recently summoned hundreds of Communist officials to warn them about the risks faced by the People’s Republic of China and to demand their engagement in preventing the unfolding of social unrest. Economic concerns are not limited to the consequences of the trade war, as they include rising local debt and the pursuit of incompatible goals, such as ensuring high and stable employment while deleveraging and tackling inefficient businesses. As a consequence, security and policing have become a prominent feature of Chinese policy directives.

This fear is also due to 2019’s peculiar density in the Chinese symbolic calendar. A century ago, patriotic student protests took place on May 4th. Thirty years ago, the iconic demonstrations in Tiananmen Square started at the beginning of June, representing the biggest challenge ever to the Communist regime.

Mao Zedong is believed to have once said: “There is great chaos under heaven; the situation is excellent.” Seventy years after founding the People’s Republic of China, no doubt he would appreciate the efforts of Presidents Trump and Xi to celebrate the solemn anniversary according to his taste.
 

localizer

Colonel
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As far as I know, TSMC keeps its most cutting edge fabs in Taiwan, but doesn't it also have it's non-cutting edge fabs in China? AFAIK TSMC doesn't manufacture in the states. Am I wrong? If TSMC has enough fabs in China, even when they're not the cutting edge ones, doesn't that provide some degree of supply chain security for China?

Edit: I misunderstood your statement but I get it now. Feel free to still clarify answers to my questions though.

Semiconductor supply chain is global if you wanna be state of the art. China taking Taiwan might result in sanctions that will make any remnant of TSMC inoperational.

Tho some of the knowledge gained will still be quite useful as TSMC is already heading towars 3nm.
 

CMP

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Semiconductor supply chain is global if you wanna be state of the art. China taking Taiwan might result in sanctions that will make any remnant of TSMC inoperational.

Tho some of the knowledge gained will still be quite useful as TSMC is already heading towars 3nm.

I wasn't arguing that China needs to take Taiwan. So in the absence of invasion, can't China continue relying on TSMC in the short term while moving towards finalizing semiconductor supply chain independence in the 10+ year time frame?
 

Nutrient

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Semiconductor supply chain is global if you wanna be state of the art. China taking Taiwan might result in sanctions that will make any remnant of TSMC inoperational.

Tho some of the knowledge gained will still be quite useful as TSMC is already heading towars 3nm.

I don't expect the mainland to "take" Taiwan militarily. Though Taiwan may voluntarily choose reunion with the mainland for economic and security reasons.

China mainland won't need Taiwanese technology. With regard to TSMC, I expect the mainland to catch up to and quite possibly overtake the Taiwanese semiconductor foundry. TSMC is currently at the 7 nanometer node, though its yields are secret and unknown outside the company. The mainland firm SMIC has recently announced 95% yields at 14 nm, which means it's not far behind TSMC and gaining fast. Overtaking TSMC is quite possible, in my opinion. Soon, TSMC's biggest competitor will be some mainland company.

As for the 3 nm node, well, talk is cheap. It may not even be possible to overcome the quantum-mechanical limits.
 

CMP

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Pretty sure US meant buy US made or US brands semiconductors

Oppo, Vivo, and Xiaomi already buy tons from Qualcomm. Perhaps it was already projected internally that their needs will rise and this “purchase” actually just accounts for projected growth in demand over the next 6 years.

Not to mention Qualcomm already relies on the China market for around 75% of its revenue IIRC, so this just tightens the mutual dependence. Broadcom’s takeover attempt was nixed but the next best thing is for them to become completely and absolutely dependent on China.

That leaves Oppo, Vivo, and Xiaomi vulnerable but none of them have the strategic value and strategic promise of Huawei anyways.
 
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Ultra

Junior Member
I think you mean far less nationalist than the US and China. Yes, that's true.

If a businessperson from my country was arrested in China, I would not immediately see that as an attack on me or my country. The one thing that would upset me is if I found out that he's being tortured or mistreated in a way that violates his human rights. But if he was given fair trial and access to legal counsel then I would accept whatever sentence is handed down on him, even if in my country the offense is not even a crime. Now, I might not think that it was the "right" decision if it contradicts my set of moral values, but I wouldn't go about boycotting China or calling for its downfall.

This, combined with the fact that I look down upon nationalism, makes it difficult for me to understand the reactions of some people on this board.


I agree.

It is important that we stick to criticize only the illegal aspects of the trial and case.

To seek to attack innocent Canadians in response to an attack on an innocent Chinese would be lowering and compromising China’s values. If China does that, then the west has already won!

Instead, the focus should be on bringing the perps and their organization to justice and freeing hostage(s). Canadian and American spies should be apprehended and given fair trial & punishment, until their parent organizations cease all illegal activity.




That's an utopian ideal like a professor in an ivory tower. It won't work.

Real world "real-politics" China should apply maximum pressure economically, politically on Canada. That's what WESTERN COUNTRIES DO whenever their citizens are illegally detained. This is the ONLY way it will work in real-politics.

Tit for tat.

If you don't do it, it means you are soft and every other country big or small will do the same to you.

After so many years I have come to realized this so called western constructed "rule-based international system" is nothing but a sham.
The real rule of geo-politics is the rules of the jungle. The strong makes the rule, everyone else follow or get wipe out.
 

drowingfish

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't expect the mainland to "take" Taiwan militarily. Though Taiwan may voluntarily choose reunion with the mainland for economic and security reasons.

China mainland won't need Taiwanese technology. With regard to TSMC, I expect the mainland to catch up to and quite possibly overtake the Taiwanese semiconductor foundry. TSMC is currently at the 7 nanometer node, though its yields are secret and unknown outside the company. The mainland firm SMIC has recently announced 95% yields at 14 nm, which means it's not far behind TSMC and gaining fast. Overtaking TSMC is quite possible, in my opinion. Soon, TSMC's biggest competitor will be some mainland company.

As for the 3 nm node, well, talk is cheap. It may not even be possible to overcome the quantum-mechanical limits.
you are way too optimistic. TSMC is way ahead of SMIC and it will be at least a decade before they are anywhere close, and that's just talking about technology not market share. though I have to disagree with assertions above that TSMC will be shut out of international market if Taiwan is taken by China. It holds much too big a market share for that to happen.
 

CMP

Senior Member
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you are way too optimistic. TSMC is way ahead of SMIC and it will be at least a decade before they are anywhere close, and that's just talking about technology not market share. though I have to disagree with assertions above that TSMC will be shut out of international market if Taiwan is taken by China. It holds much too big a market share for that to happen.

Semiconductor manufacturing capabilities have strategic value, so it’s not important for SMIC to take global market share so much as to allow China to reduce the degree of its dependence on foreign sources. Granted, Taiwan as a foreign source is relatively local, and it would be nearly impossible to stop shipments from Taiwan to China, so long as there is not a state of war between China and Taiwan, nor a case of Taiwan being subjected to American dictats to stop shipments to China. And even if there were, China has some degree of leverage to exert to keep the supply chain open.
 

localizer

Colonel
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you are way too optimistic. TSMC is way ahead of SMIC and it will be at least a decade before they are anywhere close, and that's just talking about technology not market share. though I have to disagree with assertions above that TSMC will be shut out of international market if Taiwan is taken by China. It holds much too big a market share for that to happen.

I find China’s progress largely unpredictable in many areas tbh. They are ahead in computer science because its math intensive and doesn’t require much infrastructure and is also profitable.
They are catching up in material sciences because there’s a great need for it. Healthcare is slowly progressing as they’re still trying to train young scientists but will need decades to catch up to the US.

Overall, China does well in the hardcore physical sciences as they work hard and can churn out iterations/data quickly. You don’t need to wait for mice to grow or humans to respond to a treatment.

As long as they can get their hands on the EUV equipment from ASML and other required instruments, they have a good chance of catching up to TSMC.
 
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