The World's 4th, 4.5 & 5th Generation Fighters

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Actually I think you were the one to first compare the J-XX with the PAK FA by saying "it'd look the worst out of the bunch" or something - go check the New Generation Fighter thread if you want some info or convincing that China can build a 4th/5th generation aircraft...

I am still disappointed with the progress that China has made towards their JXX program. We don't even know what stage of development they are at right now. They are probably struggling so bad on this technical issue and that technical issue to point where their program completely fall apart soon.

I bet any countries can built a 5th gen plane but the question is when.. North Korea can build one too if they want but it will take them 200 years to do so.

And what's up with the whole 75 years thing? Are you talking about surpassing the US in military technology or what? I'd ask you to clarify, but I'm sure that comparison threads are discouraged here.

Like you said, if comparison isn't allowable then people shouldn't compare the degree of stealthiness between PAK FA and F22. Yes.. It takes 75-100 years for China to exceed U.S in technology. That is a reasonable range.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

twodollarss said:

I am still disappointed with the progress that China has made towards their JXX program. We don't even know what stage of development they are at right now..

Click to expand...

Have you even followed the New Generation Fighter thread??

No sh*t we don't know what stage of development they're at - CAC won't come and say "yeah we'll get a first flight in "x" number of years"... This is a high priority project, and you expect China to just give us updates? (This is what i'm inferring from you, correct me if i'm wrong).

And how can you be dissapointed - from what I'm reading it seems like China will first fly the J-XX in 2011-2012, which I think is freaking good as if it's true. It'll fly "Soon" at least, because the PLAAF general interviewed last air force day said this and I'd take that with little or no salt whatsoever.

They are probably struggling so bad on this technical issue and that technical issue to point where their program completely fall apart soon.

Click to expand...

How on earth did you come to that conclusion?

I bet any countries can built a 5th gen plane but the question is when.. North Korea can build one too if they want but it will take them 200 years to do so.

Click to expand...

Don't see how that's exactly relevant..

Like you said, if comparison isn't allowable then people shouldn't compare the degree of stealthiness between PAK FA and F22. Yes.. It takes 75-100 years for China to exceed U.S in technology. That is a reasonable range.

Click to expand...

I should have made myself clearer - comparison discussions which may result in flaming. The stealthiness between PAK FA and F-22 will be able to be discussed I think.

I'll ignore the 75-100 years timeline you set because it'll be impossible to place a pin down and say "China's overtaken the US in technology," because it's simply too hard to fully and accurately gauge. The actual remark is a bit shifty imho.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Hi all, just a few questions regarding Pak-fa and Russian aircraft in general:

1) Is there any possibility of incorporating a F-35 DAS like system for the PAK-FA? Have Russians been known to pursue this technology?

2) Assuming the latest in Russian avionics can be found on the SU-35, how does it compare to American avionics on the F-35?

3) Since the cockpit "glass" of the Pak-fa is not, among other treatments, gold-plated, how much rcs would the various instruments inside the cockpit (including helmets) add?

I realize these questions are quite general, but any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

I'm not an expert on fighter jets, however even my untrained eye noticed a few problems with the Russian stealth fighter.

1) Framed cockpit. The metal frame that runs across the middle of the pilot's glass cockpit will reflect radar energy. That is not stealthy.

2) Lack of sawtooth edges. "Sawtooth edges on cockpit edges, landing gear doors and other openings also break up radar." See

3) Air intakes are not canted. From the side, an enemy fighter that shines its radar at the Pak Fa will get a nice radar reflection. On the F-22 Raptor, the air intakes are angled downward. An approaching enemy fighter's radar waves are reflected downward towards the ground and away from the enemy fighter's radar detectors.

4) The rear of the Pak Fa looks huge (i.e. has a huge cross-section). Compare images of the Pak Fa's tail section (including engines) to the flat and small cross-section of the F-22. I don't think the Pak Fa is stealthy from the rear. If an enemy fighter points its radar at the Pak Fa from the rear, the radar signature will be large.

Bottom line: I give the Russians a grade of "B" for a good effort. However, the aforementioned four and possibly more problems will prevent the Russian Pak Fa from seriously approaching F-22 stealthiness.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Martian said:

I'm not an expert on fighter jets, however even my untrained eye noticed a few problems with the Russian stealth fighter.

1) Framed cockpit. The metal frame that runs across the middle of the pilot's glass cockpit will reflect radar energy. That is not stealthy.

2) Lack of sawtooth edges. "Sawtooth edges on cockpit edges, landing gear doors and other openings also break up radar." See

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

3) Air intakes are not canted. From the side, an enemy fighter that shines its radar at the Pak Fa will get a nice radar reflection. On the F-22 Raptor, the air intakes are angled downward. An approaching enemy fighter's radar waves are reflected downward towards the ground and away from the enemy fighter's radar detectors.

4) The rear of the Pak Fa looks huge (i.e. has a huge cross-section). Compare images of the Pak Fa's tail section (including engines) to the flat and small cross-section of the F-22. I don't think the Pak Fa is stealthy from the rear. If an enemy fighter points its radar at the Pak Fa from the rear, the radar signature will be large.

Bottom line: I give the Russians a grade of "B" for a good effort. However, the aforementioned four and possibly more problems will prevent the Russian Pak Fa from seriously approaching F-22 stealthiness.

Click to expand...

I thought the same thing you wrote, but I'm no aerospace or defense industry engineer. I think Russia can refine its PAK-FA prototype so the aircraft has more stealthy features from the anterior end to the posterior end.

I also noticed the aircraft looks longer and more massive than the F-22. The F-22 looks like the stealth version of the F-15. With the PAK-FA, it looks like a YF-23 except with conventional wings and conventional stabilizers (the vertical stabilizers may be all moving combined with regular pivoting edges). The PAK-FA also looks like a Su-27, except with "S" engine intakes for stealth, a wider and thicker pancake fuselage for increased internal storage, and a more angular outline for stealth. It's like the Su-27 vs the F-22 all over again (haha).

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

i think twodollars is just being willfull blind to a lot of things, the fact is, f-22 was designed in the 80s, and jxx and pakfa were designed in the early 2000 or late 90s, so you shouldnt be surprised that they will have a more advanced design.(not saying they WILL have a more advanced design) and please dont label ppl with differen opinions as simply blinded by this so called pro-china mentality, the way i see it most ppl here are quite impartial, you are the one with the anti-China mentality

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Infra_Man99 said:

It's like the Su-27 vs the F-22 all over again (haha).

Click to expand...

you mean f-15

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Bltizo said:

Have you even followed the New Generation Fighter thread??
No sh*t we don't know what stage of development they're at - CAC won't come and say "yeah we'll get a first flight in "x" number of years"... This is a high priority project, and you expect China to just give us updates? (This is what i'm inferring from you, correct me if i'm wrong).

Click to expand...

I think everyone is too optimistic about China's capability in making aircraft. First, the most crucial part of an aircraft is its engine and China still have problem with WS-10A. It is not even mounted on an aircraft flying around (integrated with airframe and other systems) to find out exactly what shortcomings it has, under aerial/real flying condition.

Secondly, in my humble opinion, China only finished digesting the lessons learned in 3rd Generation fighters. The last REAL Chinese designed aircraft is the
Shenyang J-8. And I am pretty sure CAC is still digesting the lesson learned in J-10, which will take atleast a decade or more. It will then be able to do more variants of 4th Generation class fighters (similar to American's F-16, F-15, F-18) with updated improvement in tech, but I think it is still too far of a reach for China to even start 5th Generation Fighters (maybe not until 2025 or later). Seriously, it took the most high tech country in the world, the USA almost 25 YEARS to finally fielded the F-22; the Russians took similar time frame (including several failed attempts - Mikoyan Project 1.44, LFI, MFI, etc) before it finally had its first maiden flight today. And Russian made NUMEROUS 4th/4.5 generation test beds (Mig-35, Su-30, Su-35, Su-37, Su-47) and prototypes before its tech mature enough to develop this 5th gen fighter.

So, my guess is, China will continue to make variants and update of J-10 for the next 20-25 years (like the J-7 with its 48 variants), and it will finally have the techno-infrastructure and knowledge base to develop its own 5th gen fighter. Even if for some miracle that CAC push out a "5th gen" fighter for test flight in the next few years, I would probably expect it to fail miserably (Much like the MFI/Mig 1.44).

I will just quote what I say before, which I believe is what the current Chinese Aviation industry is heading, and capable of.

From what I have read so far, China does not have the capability to develop 5th generation fighter. It is still busy digesting the lessons learned in 3rd generation (eg. J-7, J-8, and HAIG L-15) and 4th generation (J-10) fighter design. It is still upgrading and improving the J-8 and touting it because that's what it is most capable of currently. The next 10 years will probably see a lot of improvments to the J-10 (J-10 II, J-10 III?? like the J-8 naming series?) as it start to learn and work out all the flaws and discover new ideas for it, it is until then, that China will finally be able to get on with J-XX series of fighter. A look at other aviation development like the American with F-14, F15, F16, F18 series can tell you it took american decades for them to digest and learn and work out various flaws in the design (various incremental improvments eg. F-14 A~D, F-16 A~D (various blocks), .....F-15 A~E, F-18 A-F... etc etc), and finally matured and move on to the next generation fighters (with ground work on various experimental design, and bombers like F-117, B-2). Same can be said with the Russians, with their Su-30 Series (Su-30, Su-33, Su-35, Su-37) and Mig-29 Series (Mig-29, Mig-35... etc), although Russian started design of next generation fighter a decade ago (Mikoyan Project 1.44), but it was premature effort in my opinion, it did not have the knowledge base and technological infrastructure, and finance to do it. But right now, I think Russian finally can move on, there isn't anything much to improve on the Su-30 or Mig-29 series, unless they move on to a new airframe or powerplant.

Click to expand...

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Remember this is just a prototype. She'll probably go through several refinements before finally entering service. It seem there are already plans for a F-22 like no-frame canopy. There were some huge changes from the original T-10 to Su-27 we know is today. Even the F-22 was refined from the original YF-22.

Anyway, full video. Better quality too...



Screen caps -

More images :

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

pla101prc said:

you mean f-15

Click to expand...

Yes, I meant Su-27 vs F-15 to PAK-FA vs F-22.

Hyperwarp said:

Remember this is just a prototype. She'll probably go through several refinements before finally entering service. It seem there are already plans for a F-22 like no-frame canopy. There were some huge changes from the original T-10 to Su-27 we know is today. Even the F-22 was refined from the original YF-22.

Click to expand...

Comparing the YF-22 to the YF-23, I read the YF-23 had superior stealth and superior super cruise, but inferior agility (due to the unconventional stabilizers). I am guessing the PAK-FA (being similar to the YF-23) will have inferior stealth to the F-22 (due to inferior Russian manufacturing capabilities), but the PAK-FA will have superior super cruise, and about the same agility. I don't know about the sensors, but the PAK-FA has an infrared bulb like the Su-27 and MiG-29. The bulb does not have a stealth shape, but it could be made of stealth materials.

I still wonder if stealth technology can progress faster than sensor technology. I still remember the Eurofighter Typhoon performing slightly inferior against the F-22, even though the Eurofighter did not have an AESA radar (which will be installed at a later date), the mock air combat occurred in a cloudy environment (advantage for the F-22), and the Eurofighter costs less than the F-22.


I see two separate internal weapons compartments in the pancake fuselage region. I'm assuming these 2 compartments are for MRAAM, LRAAM, and bombs. I can't find internal storage compartments for the SRAAM and I can't find the gun (which shouldn't be too hard to hide in a jet this large). I notice the PAK-FA has a long projection (EM sensors and jammers?) on the bottom of each lifting, leading edge. The PAK-FA definitely looks like its vertical stabilizers completely move like standard horizontal stabilizers on jet fighters.

Hyperwarp linked to videos and pictures that show the PAK-FA will be refined. It has too many exposed rivets and not enough stealth features (according to my amateur eyes).