The World's 4th, 4.5 & 5th Generation Fighters

Re: My estimate of J-20's RCS is 0.005-0.0001 m2 (or -30 to -40 db)

Martian said:

• F-35 / JSF 0.005 -30
• F-117 0.003
• insect 0.001 -30
• F-22 0.0001 -40
• B-2 0.0001 -40

Click to expand...

This chart is really interesting, but I'm not sure I buy it. Can it really be true that the F-22 designers optimized RCS to the point where hitting a stray insect during take-off negates most of their hard work?

If this is true, haven't they gone way beyond the point where reducing RCS is actually useful? No wonder the F-22 is so expensive.

Re: My estimate of J-20's RCS is 0.005-0.0001 m2 (or -30 to -40 db)



A Chinese stealth fighter jet that could pose a significant threat to American air superiority may borrow from US technology, it has been claimed.

Balkan military officials and other experts said China may have gleaned knowledge from a US F-117 Nighthawk that was shot down over Serbia in 1999.

"At the time, our intelligence reports told of Chinese agents crisscrossing the region where the F-117 disintegrated, buying up parts of the plane from local farmers," said Admiral Davor Domazet-Loso, Croatia's military chief of staff during the Kosovo war. "We believe the Chinese used those materials to gain an insight into secret stealth technologies ... and to reverse-engineer them."

The Nighthawk was downed by a Serbian anti-aircraft missile during a bombing raid on 27 March 1999. It was the first time one of the fighters had been hit, and the Pentagon blamed clever tactics and sheer luck. The pilot ejected and was rescued.

A senior Serbian military official confirmed that pieces of the wreckage were removed by souvenir collectors, and that some ended up "in the hands of foreign military attaches". Efforts to get comment from China's defence ministry and the Pentagon were unsuccessful.

Parts of the F-117 wreckage, including its left wing, cockpit canopy, ejection seat, pilot's helmet and radio, are exhibited at Belgrade's aviation museum. Zoran Milicevic, deputy director of the museum, said: "I don't know what happened to the rest of the plane. A lot of delegations visited us in the past, including the Chinese, Russians and Americans ... but no one showed any interest in taking any part of the jet."

Zoran Kusovac, a Rome-based military consultant, said the regime of the former Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic routinely shared captured western equipment with its Chinese and Russian allies. "The destroyed F-117 topped that wish-list for both the Russians and Chinese," Kusovac said.

China's multi-role stealth fighter – known as the Chengdu J-20 – made its inaugural flight on 11 January, revealing dramatic progress in the country's efforts to develop cutting-edge military technologies. It is at least eight or nine years from entering service.

Russia's Sukhoi T-50 prototype stealth fighter made its maiden flight last year and is due to enter service in about four years. It is likely that the Russians also gained knowledge of stealth technology from the downed Nighthawk.

---------This is possible IMO, but the amount of tech that could have been acquired from mangled F-117 parts would not be nearly enough to develop the J-20

Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

Not possible, all parts of downed F-117A are exhibited in Museum of Aviation in Belgrade, and have never left the Serbia.

Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

dexy-sexy said:

Not possible, all parts of downed F-117A are exhibited in Museum of Aviation in Belgrade, and have never left the Serbia.

Click to expand...

All parts...it only takes a 1X1 piece for materials science. I HIGHLY doubt that ALL parts are at the museum. C'mon, this is politics, of course China and Russia are going to do everything in their power to get their hands an a piece or two.

Some speculate that some parts were brought to the Chinese embassy for shipment back to China, but then the United States bombed the embassy to destroy them.

Whatever the truth is, trust me, not ALL parts are at that museum.

Aside from that, the F-117 is ancient technology, it wouldn't do much for the J-20...even if they had gotten the entire plane.

Re: My estimate of J-20's RCS is 0.005-0.0001 m2 (or -30 to -40 db)

Centrist said:

---------This is possible IMO, but the amount of tech that could have been acquired from mangled F-117 parts would not be nearly enough to develop the J-20

Click to expand...

Exactly, how much of that plane could really be useful considering heat and kinetic damage?

Re: Majority opinion vs. minority view

Martian said:

It is not possible to upgrade an American F-18E Super Hornet into a fifth-generation fighter. America has tried with the engine fan blocker, but it still falls far short.

Click to expand...

Maybe, maybe not.
But did you know Boeing is now pushing F-15SE Silent Eagle as cheaper version of "F-22"?
I have read somewhere that Boeing claimed "F-15SE will have the SAME FRONTAL RCS of F-22". How much that is true, we won't know, but it is a bold claim from Boeing, who has to SELL that to the Pentagon (who has the F-22 for RCS comparison).

[EDIT] : Actually, I just remembered, F-15SE Silent Eagle is being heavily pushed to KOREAN GOVERNMENT, who is NOT a partner of the F-35 program, hence they are not eligible for F-35 for the foreseeable future. So F-15SE is probably a compromise for the Koreans. (And since they don't have F-22 to compare to, how are they going to know F-15SE frontal RCS is going to be as stealthy as the F-22? )


Anyway, my point is that, its not hard to modify the airframe, to make changes to the shaping for more RCS reduction in today's tech.

But you know, the more I look at J-20, I still have doubts about the performance of it in regard to stealth. It just still reminds me too much of the Iranian Shafagh stealth fighter.... the same super smooth body (lacking any sorts of details) and the shiny RAM coating. It just seems, if you put F-22 prototype, T-50, J-20, and Shafagh side by side, J-20 looks more like Shafagh than T-50 or F-22.

Iranian Shafagh


The non-flying Japanese Stealth Fighter project also seems to feature an entirely smooth body devoid of any detail



Of course we can all argue about the stealth and the performance til the cow comes home, but at this stage, IS IT REALLY THAT HARD to make a plane TO LOOK LIKE it has the capability of stealth since all all those concepts about stealth are now common knowledge? (Eg. serpentine engine ducting, RCS shaping rules etc..)

Ultimately, the REAL indicator that J-20 is a 5th generation fighter will rest entirely on the things we can't see from photos. (The entire avionics and EW suits, sensor fusion, radar, engines, types of missile armaments..etc)

Re: Majority opinion vs. minority view

Boeing never claimed F-15SE's RCS against F-22. They claimed the FRONTAL RCS to be in the same league as F-35. Many people doubt that.

Even Boeing admit that it doesn't have underbody stealth against ground radar.

Re: Majority opinion vs. minority view

Asymptote said:

Maybe, maybe not.
But did you know Boeing is now pushing F-15SE Silent Eagle as cheaper version of "F-22"?
I have read somewhere that Boeing claimed "F-15SE will have the SAME FRONTAL RCS of F-22". How much that is true, we won't know, but it is a bold claim from Boeing, who has to SELL that to the Pentagon (who has the F-22 for RCS comparison).

[EDIT] : Actually, I just remembered, F-15SE Silent Eagle is being heavily pushed to KOREAN GOVERNMENT, who is NOT a partner of the F-35 program, hence they are not eligible for F-35 for the foreseeable future. So F-15SE is probably a compromise for the Koreans. (And since they don't have F-22 to compare to, how are they going to know F-15SE frontal RCS is going to be as stealthy as the F-22? )


Anyway, my point is that, its not hard to modify the airframe, to make changes to the shaping for more RCS reduction in today's tech.

But you know, the more I look at J-20, I still have doubts about the performance of it in regard to stealth. It just still reminds me too much of the Iranian Shafagh stealth fighter.... the same super smooth body (lacking any sorts of details) and the shiny RAM coating. It just seems, if you put F-22 prototype, T-50, J-20, and Shafagh side by side, J-20 looks more like Shafagh than T-50 or F-22.

Click to expand...

Shafagh wasn't a stealth fighter. It was a trainer with some stealth characteristics.

Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

I wondering why when I went to sleep last night I heard on the radio during the news just a mention that the J-20 was from American technology. No clip of an interview or nothing more detailed. That was it.

How much can you learn from something that was first hit by missile and then crashed into the ground? You can learn more about stealth shaping just from looking at pictures. Yeah, the only thing left was the RAM coating. But then the British and French during the Iraq War before had said they could see the F-117 on their radars.

Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

AssassinsMace said:

I wondering why when I went to sleep last night I heard on the radio during the news just a mention that the J-20 was from American technology. No clip of an interview or nothing more detailed. That was it.

How much can you learn from something that was first hit by missile and then crashed into the ground? You can learn more about stealth shaping just from looking at pictures. Yeah, the only thing left was the RAM coating. But then the British and French during the Iraq War before had said they could see the F-117 on their radars.

Click to expand...

There is very little China could have learned from the F-117.

The F-117 couldn't exceed Mach 1.
It did not have thrust vectoring.
Did not have AESA radar.
It used old 'faceted' rader shaping tech.

Not to mention, the thing was mangled and China only got a few parts....if any. The only thing that might have been useful for them would have been engine exhausts, composites, and RAM coating tech.

The media needs to just face it, the J-20 is 99% indigenous tech on behalf of the Chinese.