The War in the Ukraine

secretciaagent

Just Hatched
Registered Member
That scheme of holding large amounts of land via drone teams alone is collapsing. We are seeing many days in this month where the the Russians are capturing anywhere from 20 to 60 square kilometer of area per day.

This is just an example for today. Been charting through multiple channels, i.e. DPA War, Military Summary, and they're all saying the same thing for many days now.


One thing I don't see mentioned but is apparent in many videos is that for a while now, the Russians have become very good in hunting down Ukrainian drone teams, referred to as UAV control points, sometimes as UAV checkpoints or aircraft traffic controllers as a code name. Sometimes it's an FPV drone on that position, a Krasnopol on the next, general artillery shelling, an MLRS or TOS attack, even indirect fire from tanks on closed positions. Since both sides tend to mirror each other, expect the Ukrainians to do the same. Except the Russians have the advantage of sheer scale, volume and punch. We have seen FABs and Gerans drones used on Ukrainian UAV control positions. It's really amazing how far legacy equipment can really go when you have drones spotting for them.

The fact that 60 percent of the Russian casualties, dead or wounded are inflicted by Ukrainian drones might just reflect the decimation of artillery forces on the Ukrainian side to tip the balance over. If you check with Mediazona, the Russian casualty count is actually dropping since the fall of Avdiivka because a drone strike isn't as lethal as an artillery barrage that can put more explosive down range at a much faster rate than drones. Thanks to improvements in body armor, a single FPV drone may not be enough to take down a soldier and there are instances I have seen people come out alive from a drone strike.

But no mistake that artillery is still important even for Ukraine because there are ongoing programs to increase the number of artillery shells, Zelensky boasting of the increase of Bogdana SPGs made per month, France committing its entire production of CAESARS to Ukraine. New production of M777 by BAE is also committed to Ukraine.

For Russia, the proportion of drone vs other means is unknown but it is evident they have a ton of artillery left, even more coming online and repaired units returning to the front. On top of that, the air strikes, the TOS, and the MLRS strikes are still plenty and nasty. So the Russian ratio of drone casualties inflicted might not be as high as Ukraine's but that only reflects they still have more means that are staying very effective.
Good post!
I also think the focus on FPV drones is somewhat missing the forest for the trees. What really changed ground war in the Ukrainian context is the widespread use of spotter drones making it more or less impossible to use large columns of armored vehicles. It is only when your forces are completely atomized for fear of accurate artillery fire that FPV drones can suddenly stop a whole attack, resupply mission etc.
 

Virtup

Junior Member
Registered Member
Just pay more for better components. You do get what you paid for.
It's not about the components. Those were already praised by the Russians. It's about design philosophy, which is directly linked to doctrine. If I had to guess, I'd say China has a different doctrine for drone warfare that treats them more as their own dedicated units rather than consumables that get distributed to every infantry unit. This would make them more effective as a weapon but harder to use, store and DIY mod for your average Russian soldier, hence their complaints. So Chinese drones aren't necessarily worse, they're just meant to be used differently.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
It's not about the components. Those were already praised by the Russians. It's about design philosophy, which is directly linked to doctrine. If I had to guess, I'd say China has a different doctrine for drone warfare that treats them more as their own dedicated units rather than consumables that get distributed to every infantry unit. This would make them more effective as a weapon but harder to use, store and DIY mod for your average Russian soldier, hence their complaints. So Chinese drones aren't necessarily worse, they're just meant to be used differently.
No, The Russian entrepreneur said Chinese don't provide final products.
Russians can provide the design specs to the Chinese suppliers and I'm sure the suppliers can design and produce them. Components that are ruggedized for sure will cost a lot more.
Like I said, Russians got what they paid for.
 
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LawLeadsToPeace

Senior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member
I'm pretty sure everyone here acknowledges that chinese drone tech is the best in the world, even when compared to the like of The US, and that it is being continuously improved. BUT, do we know if small chinese suicide and recon drones are simple enough to allow dissassembly, assembly, troubleshooting and some modifications by common rank and file soldiers? Do we know if they can be hidden in trenches for weeks, possibly months, covered in mud and then be taken out and almost immediately ready for use at -20°C? Can they be casually tossed into the back of a truck, into the ground, and maybe even recovered from an overturned truck? If they are launched from a dedicated platform like the one shown in the picture, can that platform survive being spotted by one of the many many small enemy recon drones with thermal and then swarmed by suicide drones? What about their logistics? can they be given to and used by pretty much any soldier on the frontline, thus making them capable of intervening in any battle, no matter how small it is? If they are launched from dedicated platforms, can these platform be made available across the entire frontline? How would you store them? Can they survive attrition?

Designing drones with these considerations in mind does not necessarily require the best tech. It is all about institutional knowledge, doctrine and especially first-hand experience which both Russia and Ukraine have plenty of (the most in the world as of now). Learning from others' experiences is indeed good and helpful, but it can never match actually going through the wringer. So if I was China, I would listen to the Russians, conduct some adequate military exercises to try and identify as many of these problems as possible and then modify the designs to plug most of the capability gap. Unless of course China has a different doctrine with different uses of their drones, In which case most of these considerations become irrelevent. But it would still mean that Russia can't rely on them.
Both Russians and Ukrainians are using Chinese commercial drones, not military ones. They were never meant to be rugged. The specs of the two types of drones are completely different. I wouldn't even be surprised if the DJI drones that are in the hands of PLA infantry are customized to be more robust than their civilian counterparts. That Russian engineer completely overlooked this aspect.
 

Racek49

New Member
Registered Member
Just pay more for better components. You do get what you paid for.
China does not supply or intends to supply weapons or components suitable for the production of more sophisticated weapons. Which I think is very reasonable. Therefore, both sides can buy and use components intended for civilian use. By the way, I have heard complaints from Russian sources about the quality of Chinese chips. The sellers are companies that are not afraid of the embargo or can avoid it, and the goods offered are proportional to this fact. Unfortunately, money will not help here. Do you understand? It is impossible otherwise in today's situation. After all, Russia can cope with it.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
China does not supply or intends to supply weapons or components suitable for the production of more sophisticated weapons. Which I think is very reasonable. Therefore, both sides can buy and use components intended for civilian use. By the way, I have heard complaints from Russian sources about the quality of Chinese chips. The sellers are companies that are not afraid of the embargo or can avoid it, and the goods offered are proportional to this fact. Unfortunately, money will not help here. Do you understand? It is impossible otherwise in today's situation. After all, Russia can cope with it.
Watch the interview. I did. The Russian entrepreneur said he has no problem getting anything he wants from China.
 

Faisal Iqbal

New Member
Registered Member
If they could have objectively evaluated Chinese weapons, and purchased them while they had the chance, they would not be paying such a high butchers bill in Ukraine.
Bingo that's the main point, they had the resources, I mean they had investment of 300 Billion Euro bonds in Europeans banks, why did they not secure these funds, convert some part in Gold, part in arms from China before starting their special operation?
 

Soldier30

Senior Member
Registered Member
Footage of an attack by Russian FPV drones used by operators of the 6th Army on a Ukrainian T-64BV tank. The video was filmed near the village of Kasyanovka, Kharkov region of Ukraine. T-64BV tanks were produced in the USSR at the Kharkov Malyshev Plant from 1976 to 1987. The Ukrainian T-64BV tank was attacked by several drones, causing its ammunition to explode.

 

Racek49

New Member
Registered Member
Watch the interview. I did. The Russian entrepreneur said he has no problem getting anything he wants from China.
Sure. You can smuggle a lot of stuff across the border. But not in large quantities. It probably wouldn't meet with a favorable reaction from China if Russia deployed the Chinese weapons it acquired in this way.
But of course, there are routes through some countries that Russia uses, for example, it smuggles powerful chips through. This is sometimes discussed here in the case of China ,Iran and other countries for example in the thread about semiconductors.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Sure. You can smuggle a lot of stuff across the border. But not in large quantities. It probably wouldn't meet with a favorable reaction from China if Russia deployed the Chinese weapons it acquired in this way.
But of course, there are routes through some countries that Russia uses, for example, it smuggles powerful chips through. This is sometimes discussed here in the case of China ,Iran and other countries for example in the thread about semiconductors.
If a Russian said he can import as much as he want for any components from China, there is no reason for me to doubt him.
 
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