The War in the Ukraine

[Virtup]

Their design is not only "good on paper" Chinese drones, the real ones, with missiles, had been used in Africa, the Middle East, recently in Pakistan and even by the Chinese military in Burma, Since 2014. they have putting their drones in South China Sea and in the Strait. China has been developing drone swarm capabilities before 2017.

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Just because they don't often use them themselves doesn't mean they are not improving based on they see in the battlefield.

China not only has pretty big capabilities in drones, but also the diversity in drones, from UAV, UUV ,USV, UGV, supersonic, attack, surveilling, loitering drones, suicide drones, small drones, big drones.

IMO The Russians didn't recognized the value of drones until the war in Ukraine extended. Is ridiculous. The Chinese has been recognizing the value of drone warfare since the 2000s.

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I'm pretty sure everyone here acknowledges that chinese drone tech is the best in the world, even when compared to the like of The US, and that it is being continuously improved. BUT, do we know if small chinese suicide and recon drones are simple enough to allow dissassembly, assembly, troubleshooting and some modifications by common rank and file soldiers? Do we know if they can be hidden in trenches for weeks, possibly months, covered in mud and then be taken out and almost immediately ready for use at -20°C? Can they be casually tossed into the back of a truck, into the ground, and maybe even recovered from an overturned truck? If they are launched from a dedicated platform like the one shown in the picture, can that platform survive being spotted by one of the many many small enemy recon drones with thermal and then swarmed by suicide drones? What about their logistics? can they be given to and used by pretty much any soldier on the frontline, thus making them capable of intervening in any battle, no matter how small it is? If they are launched from dedicated platforms, can these platform be made available across the entire frontline? How would you store them? Can they survive attrition?

Designing drones with these considerations in mind does not necessarily require the best tech. It is all about institutional knowledge, doctrine and especially first-hand experience which both Russia and Ukraine have plenty of (the most in the world as of now). Learning from others' experiences is indeed good and helpful, but it can never match actually going through the wringer. So if I was China, I would listen to the Russians, conduct some adequate military exercises to try and identify as many of these problems as possible and then modify the designs to plug most of the capability gap. Unless of course China has a different doctrine with different uses of their drones, In which case most of these considerations become irrelevent. But it would still mean that Russia can't rely on them.

 

[tokenanalyst]

BUT, do we know if small chinese suicide and recon drones are simple enough to allow dissassembly, assembly, troubleshooting and some modifications by common rank and file soldiers? Do we know if they can be hidden in trenches for weeks, possibly months, covered in mud and then be taken out and almost immediately ready for use at -20°C?

I think both the Ukrainians and the Russians use Chinese components, batteries, plastic and engines, I think even the 3d printers, I think are from China, in a drone, specially the smaller ones, usually the engines are the first to fail due the mud and the humidity, pretty much everything else, the electronics, batteries and the housing can more or less survive tough conditions, consumer grade ICs are usually made to tolerate medium range of temperature and humidity. So if these components perform well in the Ukrainian battlefield, Chinese drones will perform good in any battlefield.
Also at Start of this war the main small drone the both sides were using was DJI drones probably the most reliable commercial drone, ever, until scarcity hit both sides.. So I am pretty confident that China FPV drones will perform pretty good. In fact China have access to domestic Industrial-military grade electronic components, batteries and motors due a strong domestic semiconductor, battery and other high tech industries . The Ukrainians, I don't know about the Russians, are stuck to consumer grade components.

Agree that Chinese soldiers and commanders could benefit from Russian experience in this type of warfare, in fact they should collaborate to make advances in this sector, but that has nothing to do with Chinese hardware, that is more a doctrine issue.​

 

[tokenanalyst]

Suicidal fpvs employed enmass was not a thing, fiber optics unjammable drones were not a thing. Neither mine laying drones nor attack and casualty evacuations via UGVs were used in practice previously to this war.

In the last 2 years tactical UAV usage has moved from sporadic makeshift battlefield innovation to more than 60% of casualties inflicted by Ukranian forces, more than even artillery.

Agree that the Ukrainian war has bringed innovations is small drone warfare and tactics unlike any other war, the Ukrainian battlefield has a become a bloody videogame. But is more a tactical leap in small drone warfare. The innovations is more about the implementation of civilian tech in war, like fiber optics to overcome jamming, the use of commercial satellite networks, the use of commercial available drone like DJI, 3D printers, the COTS components and the use of FPV drones.

But this is not revolution in tech like drone powered with quantum sensors or semi-aware AI driven drones. I least that I know.

 

[HereToSeePics]

I'm pretty sure everyone here acknowledges that chinese drone tech is the best in the world, even when compared to the like of The US, and that it is being continuously improved. BUT, do we know if small chinese suicide and recon drones are simple enough to allow dissassembly, assembly, troubleshooting and some modifications by common rank and file soldiers? Do we know if they can be hidden in trenches for weeks, possibly months, covered in mud and then be taken out and almost immediately ready for use at -20°C? Can they be casually tossed into the back of a truck, into the ground, and maybe even recovered from an overturned truck? If they are launched from a dedicated platform like the one shown in the picture, can that platform survive being spotted by one of the many many small ...

Yep, no need for people to go into a DEFCON Level 1 defensive mode every time there's some minor criticism of the drone industry in China, especially in this interview where the points he made are fairly well reasoned and constructive.

Anyway, we're starting to go off topic and opening a can of worms in regards to China related matters.

 

[tokenanalyst]

My last comment in this topic, I am just saying that the guy in the video saying that "China build their weapons like toys" is in my opinion, ignorant, and more given that China is not exporting weapons to Russia, he doesn't know. China may lack tactics for this kind of warfare but not the hardware.

 

[Faisal Iqbal]

In the video he does say that there is nothing wrong with the chinese components, also gives the analogy of Kamaz trucks winning Dakar rally even the basic components are the same as Mercedez, according to him this is due to lack of China's experince of day to day grinding, attritional conflict that Russia and Ukaraine are enduring, this is a fact and for that China and all its neighbor's should be thankful, this explanation is reasonable and acceptable, we should move on.
One thing of note that jump out to me was, that with all the death and mayhem this conflict has caused, Russians have refrained from dehumanizing the adversary, same is the case with China and Japan (Iris Chang book was written as USA citizen), whlie in South Asian conflict that care is not taken so the results are that general public has this rabid blood lust, where we want to tear the other nation apart, as South Asian that's what we should learn from them.

 

[Tam]

Exactly. If we were going by metrics of who was first the US have been using MALE strike UAVs for decades at this point in the hundreds. Yet they are behind China in tactical drones. This war has borne innovation and tactics that are only followed by everyone else.

Suicidal fpvs employed enmass was not a thing, fiber optics unjammable drones were not a thing. Neither mine laying drones nor attack and casualty evacuations via UGVs were used in practice previously to this war.

In the last 2 years tactical UAV usage has moved from sporadic makeshift battlefield innovation to more than 60% of casualties inflicted by Ukranian forces, more than even artillery.

I don't think we have seen so little people able to hold a vast amount of ground simply due to the readily available fires provided by cheap guided munitions in the form of drones.

That scheme of holding large amounts of land via drone teams alone is collapsing. We are seeing many days in this month where the the Russians are capturing anywhere from 20 to 60 square kilometer of area per day.

This is just an example for today. Been charting through multiple channels, i.e. DPA War, Military Summary, and they're all saying the same thing for many days now.

One thing I don't see mentioned but is apparent in many videos is that for a while now, the Russians have become very good in hunting down Ukrainian drone teams, referred to as UAV control points, sometimes as UAV checkpoints or aircraft traffic controllers as a code name. Sometimes it's an FPV drone on that position, a Krasnopol on the next, general artillery shelling, an MLRS or TOS attack, even indirect fire from tanks on closed positions. Since both sides tend to mirror each other, expect the Ukrainians to do the same. Except the Russians have the advantage of sheer scale, volume and punch. We have seen FABs and Gerans drones used on Ukrainian UAV control positions. It's really amazing how far legacy equipment can really go when you have drones spotting for them.

The fact that 60 percent of the Russian casualties, dead or wounded are inflicted by Ukrainian drones might just reflect the decimation of artillery forces on the Ukrainian side to tip the balance over. If you check with Mediazona, the Russian casualty count is actually dropping since the fall of Avdiivka because a drone strike isn't as lethal as an artillery barrage that can put more explosive down range at a much faster rate than drones. Thanks to improvements in body armor, a single FPV drone may not be enough to take down a soldier and there are instances I have seen people come out alive from a drone strike.

But no mistake that artillery is still important even for Ukraine because there are ongoing programs to increase the number of artillery shells, Zelensky boasting of the increase of Bogdana SPGs made per month, France committing its entire production of CAESARS to Ukraine. New production of M777 by BAE is also committed to Ukraine.

For Russia, the proportion of drone vs other means is unknown but it is evident they have a ton of artillery left, even more coming online and repaired units returning to the front. On top of that, the air strikes, the TOS, and the MLRS strikes are still plenty and nasty. So the Russian ratio of drone casualties inflicted might not be as high as Ukraine's but that only reflects they still have more means that are staying very effective.

 

[Soldier30]

Clear footage of an attack by a Russian Su-34 fighter-bomber with three FAB-500 aerial bombs equipped with UMPK modules. The strike with Russian FAB-500 bombs was carried out on a Ukrainian hangar with military equipment in the Kherson direction. The exact location of the shooting is not reported. The video also shows an explosion in the hangar, presumably of some equipment.

 

[vincent]

I'm pretty sure everyone here acknowledges that chinese drone tech is the best in the world, even when compared to the like of The US, and that it is being continuously improved. BUT, do we know if small chinese suicide and recon drones are simple enough to allow dissassembly, assembly, troubleshooting and some modifications by common rank and file soldiers? Do we know if they can be hidden in trenches for weeks, possibly months, covered in mud and then be taken out and almost immediately ready for use at -20°C? Can they be casually tossed into the back of a truck, into the ground, and maybe even recovered from an overturned truck? If they are launched from a dedicated platform like the one shown in the picture, can that platform survive being spotted by one of the many many small enemy recon drones with thermal and then swarmed by suicide drones? What about their logistics? can they be given to and used by pretty much any soldier on the frontline, thus making them capable of intervening in any battle, no matter how small it is? If they are launched from dedicated platforms, can these platform be made available across the entire frontline? How would you store them? Can they survive attrition?

Designing drones with these considerations in mind does not necessarily require the best tech. It is all about institutional knowledge, doctrine and especially first-hand experience which both Russia and Ukraine have plenty of (the most in the world as of now). Learning from others' experiences is indeed good and helpful, but it can never match actually going through the wringer. So if I was China, I would listen to the Russians, conduct some adequate military exercises to try and identify as many of these problems as possible and then modify the designs to plug most of the capability gap. Unless of course China has a different doctrine with different uses of their drones, In which case most of these considerations become irrelevent. But it would still mean that Russia can't rely on them.

Just pay more for better components. You do get what you paid for.

 

[plawolf]

It’s kinda amusing how they built their entire drone industry on final assembly of Chinese drone parts and have the cheek to claim they make better drones.

Sure the Chinese commercial drones they can buy on the open market are fragile, but that’s because those are toys, agricultural equipment and photography tools, not weapons of war. The equivalent is to take a Chinese civilian SUV and complaining it’s not built like an APC and cannot withstand battlefield conditions. No shit Sherlock! That’s not what it was designed for.

That’s not to say Chinese military drones are perfect gods gift to man, and Chinese military drone manufacturers are ravenously gathering up all data and feedback possible from Ukraine to help them better refine their own military models.

And you can be sure they will have examples of every jury rigged Ukrainian, Russian and NATO drone used in Ukraine to study and compare their own models against. The PLA itself will no doubt use those combat proven drones as a measuring stick for determining if Chinese military models cut the mustard. And the PLA is the only organisation in the world who could make an actual informed determination on where Chinese military drones stand in relation to those used in Ukraine.

Russian opinions of Chinese weapons have always been heavily coloured by their own egos and mild racism. If they could have objectively evaluated Chinese weapons, and purchased them while they had the chance, they would not be paying such a high butchers bill in Ukraine.