The War in the Ukraine

baykalov

Senior Member
Registered Member
Italian La Repubblica: The United States and NATO allow the start of peace talks on Ukraine in the event that Kiev recaptures Kherson, the battle for which has both strategic and diplomatic significance.

Automatic translation from Italian:

Take Kherson and then negotiate: NATO now sees a window

Confidential reports between Washington and Brussels identify a short-term negotiating window: reach all the way to the banks of the Dnipro and push for a ceasefire from a position of strength.

BRUSSELS - Negotiate. Even in the short term. When the advantageous position will be evident. After the recapture of the southern city of Kherson, where one of the toughest battles against the Russian army is being fought. In the latest analyses circulating in the NATO offices in Brussels, the confrontation in that area is taking on a value that is not only strategic from a military point of view. But also from a political and diplomatic one. And it is mainly the U.S. that is conveying to the allies the possibility of a breakthrough. Because beating the Russian army in one of the most important gateways to the Sea of Azov and Crimea can mean a real chance to engage in the first real negotiations with Moscow.

Indeed, in the reports circulating between Atlantic Alliance officials and EU interlocutors, one assumption is made: the Russian armies are now under pressure. Unable to react successfully to the Ukrainian advance. Their reaction is focused defensively on destroying infrastructure - power grid, water supply, bridges, roads -, building a triple line of trenches and using natural barriers such as the Dnipro River. The goal is to slow the advance of Kiev troops. Kherson is not just any town: decisive for access to the sea and crucial for control of water resources and river transport. Recapturing it would mean permanently changing the direction of the conflict.

Precisely for this reason, a message is coming from the U.S.-through Brussels-that is also an invitation to the Ukrainian government: if and when Kherson is recaptured, then negotiations can begin. From a position of strength and not weakness. The point is that the White House for the first time has begun to speculate on such a concrete path. Not without Kherson, however. Not now. Not least because starting negotiations at this stage would only mean giving Moscow's military time to reorganize. Some strategic cornerstones must, in short, be consolidated first. To then discuss having the upper hand. This is also why Washington and NATO have confirmed to Zelensky the forthcoming dispatch of more missiles with a range capable of inhibiting the action of Iranian-built drones. More weapons, therefore, will arrive in Kiev precisely with the goal of reaching the Kherson target.

What is more, there are two key aspects that the U.S. Administration is emphasizing in now-daily exchanges with NATO allies. The first concerns the Russian threat of the use of tactical nuclear bombs. While this is considered a form of deterrence that is not currently active, it remains a risk to be avoided. Not least because in that case not only would there almost inevitably be a wide-ranging reaction with conventional weapons, but it would become difficult to contain the nervousness of some allies such as the Poles, who now represent the EU's closest partner militarily to Washington (indeed, some reaction schemes involve precisely the deployment of Warsaw's troops). The other concerns relations with China. Having lost Kherson, the crisis in the former Red Army would be over. The solutions hypothesized a few months ago in connection with a possible "regime change" in the Kremlin have now been overcome. At this point, for the United States, the total defeat of Putin would result in a worse consequence: handing over control of Russia to China. It would be like going from the frying pan into the fire. Better, then, a hostile but bruised leader independent of Beijing.

Of course, American plans for dialogue also depend on political factors: the first will take shape next week with the midterm elections. The possibility of the Democrats losing their majorities in both the Senate and the House (and the widespread victory of Trumpian candidates) may have different effects. Just as it is not yet clear whether the Biden-Putin talks at the G20 in Bali will take place. The war however enters a different phase thanks to a kind of "parellela convergence" of Kremlin and White House interests. A negotiation may certainly not lead immediately to peace but perhaps to a cease-fire in the Donbass. And also to the extension of the grain agreement.

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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Italian La Repubblica: The United States and NATO allow the start of peace talks on Ukraine in the event that Kiev recaptures Kherson, the battle for which has both strategic and diplomatic significance.

Automatic translation from Italian:

Take Kherson and then negotiate: NATO now sees a window
Looks like a trap.

Russia mobilised 300k soldier, the supply routes to Kherson intact, the city prepared for siege.

It sound like me they want the white house to push the NATO units into Kherson, to annihilate them and regain the initiative.
 

sheogorath

Colonel
Registered Member
You sure about that? Chinese choose 105mm precisely because it could penetrate baseline T-72B in the front.

~1000m? This is the spec sheet for 105mm phase 2 export APFSDS.

The T-72B has far more protection than 220mm at LOS. Early models T-72B have around 450-550 mm along glacis and turret front


I think you are underestimating the 105 mm L7. In late in the cold war, plenty of NATO tanks were expected to deal with stuff newer than the T-62 with the L7 and other 105 mm guns. The Leopard 1 series, M48/M60 family, Centurions, AMX-30 and early M1s. Even wheeled tank destroyers like the AMX-10RC and Centauro were developed to defeat T-72s with 105 mm guns. It won't be as reliable as a 120 mm or 125 mm gun, but this isn't World of Tanks either.

That's what they thought but once they realized that T-64 and T-72 were better armored than they expected, they made the switch to 120mm.

The 105mm wasn't enough to even pen the glacis of the late T-72A with the reinforced extra 16mm steel plate, and there were plenty of tests done after the Cold War was over.

Austria ran a test against a former East German T-72M1, firing NP105A2 rounds from their M60's and it failed to penetrate the tank from the front. Mind you, the NP105 was supposed to be better than the american's M774
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Sweden did a similar test using DM63's against the T-72M1 with similar results which lead them to deem the T-72M1 immune to 105mm ammo.

The US Army did a test as well with the M833 DU APFSDS against a T-72M1 as well with similar results
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In March and April of 1988, live fire tests
conducted by the Army revealed that not one 105mm depleted
uranium round fired from the M1 (same M68 cannon that is on the
M60A1 and proposed LAV-AG) was able to penetrate the armor of an
export model of the T72. 2 In fact, the M833 round, our current
armor defeating round, can only penetrate up to the T62. 3 All
follow-on tanks, T64 series, T72 series, T80 and FSTs are
protected in the frontal 60 degree arc. This includes the export
model of the T72. This failure of the 105mm cannon against
potential threat armor and its lack of engineering growth
potential to keep pace with emerging armor technology was a
driving factor in the decision to procure the M1A1 with its 120mm
cannon.

105mm rounds capable of defeating the frontal armor of a T-72M type are manufactured by Israel and they already have refused to export any type of weapons to Ukraine, so the chances of an Slovenian T-55 firing those are close to 0

And we are talking about East German T-72M which already were slightly less armored than baseline soviet T-72A, let alone T-72B
 

RottenPanzer

Junior Member
Registered Member
Didn't M60s (that was also armed with 105mm) was also used back in the first gulf war and proof to be good enough against Iraqi T-72Ms and even destroyed them tho? Or the Iraqi ones have worse variant than the ones in the service of Warsaw Pact?
 

sheogorath

Colonel
Registered Member
Didn't M60s (that was also armed with 105mm) was also used back in the first gulf war and proof to be good enough against Iraqi T-72Ms and even destroyed them tho? Or the Iraqi ones have worse variant than the ones in the service of Warsaw Pact?
A lot of the "T-72" kills by M60's during Desert Storm were misidentified T-62/Type 69. Also the M60 participated in the initial liberation of Kuwait but were absent of larger engagements after that. Also, they were always mixed in with M1A1 in their units.

There were also talks of 105mm equiped israeli tank defeating Syrian T-72's but that isn't the case either. Syrian T-72 were destroyed with improved tandem-warhead TOWs, which is what prompted the US to develop a tandem warhead of its own.
 

B777LR

Junior Member
Registered Member
Didn't M60s (that was also armed with 105mm) was also used back in the first gulf war and proof to be good enough against Iraqi T-72Ms and even destroyed them tho? Or the Iraqi ones have worse variant than the ones in the service of Warsaw Pact?

Iraq did indeed use T-72M variants, and those got taken out by M60s. Same story in Lebanon, L7 equipped M60s and Merkava 1s had no problem dealing with various Syrian T-72s.

As I noted, real world isn't World of Tanks with its rock-paper-scissors take on armoured warfare and precise aiming. Just this morning there was a video of a Russian tank blasting a Ukrainian tank from extremely short range. There have been videos from earlier on in the war of tanks engaging each other with the hull facing backwards and exposing the rear hull. At short distances and if not facing forward hull toward the enemy, then the T-72 is perfectly vulnerable to an L7.
 

sheogorath

Colonel
Registered Member
raq did indeed use T-72M variants, and those got taken out by M60s. Same story in Lebanon, L7 equipped M60s and Merkava 1s had no problem dealing with various Syrian T-72s
As I pointed out above, misidentification, the M60's were backed by M1A1 and the Syrian T-72's were destroyed by ATGM, not Merkavas.

As I noted, real world isn't World of Tanks with its rock-paper-scissors take on armoured warfare and precise aiming.
There are such things as physics, though, and how much energy can a gun transfer to the round, how much pressure can the gun itself handle, etc.

All of it things that limit the penetration capabilities of the gun and ammo. I mean, I'm not sure how you can expect rounds rated to penetrate 200mm to 350mm of RHA equivalent at best to penetrate tanks that have more than that.

There have been videos from earlier on in the war of tanks engaging each other with the hull facing backwards and exposing the rear hull
This is the main scenario where the M55S might useful, as ambush vehicles. Forget using it for anything against another MBT that isn't a T-62.
At short distances and if not facing forward hull toward the enemy, then the T-72 is perfectly vulnerable to an L7.
Older 105mm rounds can't penetrate T-72M even at point blank range, there is just not enough energy for that and the penetrator can't handle it either.
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
T-72M1 is even worse than T-72A. The export variant T-72M1 lacks the composite filling in the turret of the Soviet T-72A. AFAIK the worst T-72 Russia is using in Ukraine is the T-72B which has Kontakt-1 ERA.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
Seeing lots of footage floating online from Pavlivka, seems like it was real and not just telegram chatter. Russia was foolish to push during this time against entrenched Ukrainian forces.
 
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