The War in the Ukraine

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
I speak to the people and yes they want to get back as soon as possible. In the first few months they had to be persuaded to stay a while longer until the most intense fighting ends.
In which war did refugees return back to their own country after they left? Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Kosovo, Bosnia, I can't think of a single one. Even going back to WW2 most eastern European refugees ended up staying in the countries they fled to.

All those countries had high fertility rates where the people fleeing could be replaced; the Ukraine has one of the lowest fertility rates in the world. The Ukraine is a failed state, this war is only speeding up it's collapse.
 

phrozenflame

Junior Member
Registered Member
Corruption has eaten through the core of the Russian army.
If the Russians had artillery in range to hit massed Ukrainian forces as they entered Izyum, the only reason to explain why they didn’t fire is the presence of civilians.

Simple inaction from high command would not lead to such obvious inaction by frontline forces, as I’m sure there would have been a whole line of field officers screaming down their radios to rain hell down on the enemy and cover their own retreat. It probably took intervention from senior officers to countermand those field orders for the artillery to remain silent.

Despite the relentless western propaganda, it has been the Russians who have consistently gone out of their way to limit civilian casualties as much as possible, even when doing so costs Russian soldiers’ lives.
They've flattened entire cities in the east before.


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It seems that the annexation has not yet been ratified, so as of right now it's little more than a piece of paper. But it seems Russia will probably ratify it by October 4th. After ratification I won't be surprise if an ultimatum is issued to Ukraine, and the war will kick up massively. You need to be wondering where did all those Russian equipment and troops we saw in all those telegram and twitter posts end up. Once ratified those new territories would be full on Russian territory under Russian law and Putin would have all the legal authorities he needs to defend them with everything Russia got. If Russia is willing to ratify it, it would mean they are fully committed to defending its new oblasts as failing to do so would destroy Russian credibility and territorial security, and might even endanger western perception on how willing Russia would defend Crimea or any other part of Russia. The SMO is very likely to become elevated to full on war or at least an anti-terrorist operation if Ukraine refuses the ultimatum after the ratification of the annexation.

No it will not ramp up massively. You think men on front lines are waiting for Putin to sign a peace of paper on a random dats so they can pull their triggers? No. At best you will see Russia bomb some critical infrastructure that will have minimal impact on the front line.

What's happening is the outcome of corruption.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
There is something strange and wholly counter intuitive about the events we are seeing on the ground.
If you were to break down the conflict in terms of a separate front for each of the newly incorporated republics and list them from most to least exposed you would write it as thus

Kherson
Zhaphorisia
Donetsk
Lughansk

Kherson - a very long flat front with little but villages and open fields. Its the furthest point in terms of supply, relying on the potential choke point out of Crimea, and the bridges over the Dnieper. It is the most Western of the Fronts and closest to the open Heartland of the Ukraine and the easiest for the Ukraine to reinforce and resupply.

Zhaphorisia - another long front of flat land with not that many large towns in much of the territory. Also mainly dependent on supplies coming out of Crimea. For the Ukrainians this is a front easily reached and resupplied and the depth of the territory to the Sea of Azov is not particularly great, meaning that a strike capable of dividing the Russian territory is feasible.

Donetsk - Highly Urbanised and Fortified, Russian supplies come in direct from the Russian mainland. Same situation for the Ukrainians but very difficult for either side to make rapid advances.

Lughansk - The ideal territory for the Russians to defend. Its hilly, heavily wooded, deep river valleys, good sized towns and very close to the Russian mainland for not only resupply and reinforcements, but also easy long range artillery and aviation support. For the Ukrainains all the opposite is true, stretched lines due to poor road and rail connections, hard terrain to attack and front most adjacent to a very long and wide Russian homeland border.

Yet in reality

Kherson - Russia has stopped a major Ukrainian counter offensive waged against it for over a month, and prepared for over a much longer time beforehand. The Ukrainians were not able to disable the bridges over the Dnieper, there offensives were turned into traps and they have lost massive quantities of men and material for the sake of gaining a few small towns and villages.

Zhaphorisia - Whatever offensive was planned here never had the chance to start. We can only assume that forces intended were redirected elsewhere, presumably to the North for the current ongoing Ukrainian offensive.

Donetsk - No major offensive apparently planned or initiated on this front. hardly a surprise given what the cost would be to achieve a breakthrough in a head on assault.

Lughansk - The scene of a very successful Ukrainian counter offensive, with the Russians retreating eastwards rather than take advantage of the terrain or the proximity of the homeland. The Ukraine has responded by moving all its available and most combat capable units to this front to maintain the pressure and momentum against the failing Russian defense.

Well something here clearly does not add up. How is it that a Russian army that can perform so well in its most vulnerable front suddenly makes every tactical and operational mistake on the front that should be the most secure and easy to defend.

Sometimes things are exactly what they seem and no amount of cope or wishful thinking will change that.
On the other hand I cannot discount how this is such an almost ludicrous reversal of outcome, that I cannot but start to speculate about the circumstances that have persuaded the Ukrainians to commit there most combat capable units to a front which is potentially the most perilous for them.....

So Massive Foul up or Cunning Trap?
You tell me.....

Do you know what the most interesting aspect of all these Ukrainian deep breakthrough ‘sweeping victories’ are to me? That they have yet to engage and defeat any meaningfully sized Russian formations.

There are heavy engagements at times, but it’s always a case of the Russians withdrawing of their own accord rather than breaking and fleeing as the pro-Ukrainian twitterverse would have you believe.

There are just the same scale of losses of a handful of Russians dead here and abandoned vehicle there that we have seen before. If not for all the tongue-wagging online, and if we were to just look at verifiable Russian battlefield losses, would anyone really see evidence of a significant uptick in Russian losses, as one would expect from the amount of territory they have lost?

The Ukrainians are undoubtedly gaining group, a lot of ground. But they are paying for that ground dearly with blood and equipment and munitions and not being able as yet to pin down and destroy any meaningful Russian strengths. All the while pushing their best forces deeper and deeper into Russian held territory and extending their supply lines and getting far from their trenches, fortifications and civilian human shields. Worst of all, they are doing it at the wrong time of year.

If the Ukrainians are not very careful, they can very easily find themselves in a situation where general mud and frost arrives and bogs down much of their forces along a long and wide exposed front, far from supplies and stripped of the vegetation cover they have thus far replied upon so heavily to escape Russian firepower.

The Russian artillery have a hard time hitting mobile forces on the move, but even they will have no problems pounding columns bogged down in the mud.

With the leaves gone, the current MIA Russian fixed-wing TacAir might at last make an appearance.

This whole ‘collapse’ just screams danger, yet the Ukrainians are going all in. That screams the worst kind of incompetence and desperation to me.

Just think about it, if the Russians are truly hard pressed, they have hundreds of thousands of standing force strengths they can immediately deploy. They have a hell of a lot of top tier aviation and ground forces in Syria they could redeploy. They have a lot of forces that were just doing war games they could redeploy. Yet instead of doing any of that, they are calling up conscripts.

As far as I can see, the greatest value in the Russian partial mobilisation is in silencing the doubters in Ukraine and the west and to convince them that Russia is indeed on the ropes so they continue with their current mass offensives instead to looking to try to consolidate their gains and actually hold onto any of it.

I foresee a couple of months where the worsening weather bogs down the Ukrainian advance and essentially traps them in place for Russian artillery and aviation to work relentlessly on until the weather gets cold enough to freeze the ground and allow tanks and heavy vehicles to pass unimpeded once more. Then the Russians will launch their winter offensives with the professional soldiers spearheading the attack while the freshly raised conscripts are used to bulk up their numbers where needed, and to hold ground behind the front lines.

The biggest questions are just how much of Ukraine’s best forces they can pin and destroy before to make that offensive as easy and cheap as possible for them.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Corruption has eaten through the core of the Russian army.

They've flattened entire cities in the east before.

No it will not ramp up massively. You think men on front lines are waiting for Putin to sign a peace of paper on a random dats so they can pull their triggers? No. At best you will see Russia bomb some critical infrastructure that will have minimal impact on the front line.

What's happening is the outcome of corruption.
Don't think so .

Judged on the increased capacity and capability to produce new weapons the corruption level of the Russian army decreased dramatically.


Judging by performance it was on par with the USA coruption level, most probably it is better now.


I have a feeling about the reason of lack of frontline toops is due to the integration / creatin of new military formations by combine the newly recruited grunts with the experienced ones.


Additionaly lot of frontline NCO/officers has to train the 300k reservist .
 

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
Well, at least the Russians are figuring out that because someone is good at COIN, doesnt mean they are automatically good at conventional warfare.

Americans will probably find that out too the hard way if they keep pushing around Asia. Not that they are good at COIN to begin with anyway, but I digress
 
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tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
Do you know what the most interesting aspect of all these Ukrainian deep breakthrough ‘sweeping victories’ are to me? That they have yet to engage and defeat any meaningfully sized Russian formations.

There are heavy engagements at times, but it’s always a case of the Russians withdrawing of their own accord rather than breaking and fleeing as the pro-Ukrainian twitterverse would have you believe.
You can't engage what doesn't exist. The Ukranian side can only fight what Russian forces choose to stand and fight when at risk of encirclement. Instead, they're doing the withdrawal thing that they have been doing for the last month.

Once again, it is not up to Ukraine to decide what forces Russia choose to commit, if Russia decides to put paper thin defenses on their fronts, why is that suddenly the fault of Ukraine to exploit their weakness?

Concentrating your forces and punching through at the weakest point does not mean that Ukraine is "suicide charging" whatever that means. This is a war, there's no sitting behind computer screens waiting for it all to blow over, why would they not spend available manpower to expel the enemy? This the weakest point for the Russian armed forces until mobilized reserves join in a month or two, why would Ukraine not seek to gain as much defensible ground as possible?
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
This the weakest point for the Russian armed forces until mobilized reserves join in a month or two, why would Ukraine not seek to gain as much defensible ground as possible?
Or try to make a peace agreement prior of facing several times more Russian on the frontlines ?

At the moment they chargin and using up all reserves accumulated in the past half year, sending the NATO stuff into the same hole that consumed all Soviet era military stuff.


At same point the Russians will decide it is time to cut off the Ukrain forces and resuply, and destroy the road and rail network in Ukraine, and make an end to the highly mobile warfare of the Ukrainan units.


They can send freely the NATO units from Poland to Donetsk, easyest way to slow it down is to blow up the bridges and railways.

Not doing it means the Russians doesn't see the current push serious enoguht.
 

Pmichael

Junior Member

The Ukraine operating with boderline real-time intel and recon data, which should be standard in 2022 and it shows that Ukrainian forces have the basics of secure comms and data gathering done. Meanwhile desperate Russian forces are requesting support through Telegram.

Meanwhile the decades of cultivated corruption in Russia, there is no easy way out of fixing those forms of institutional corruption - fixing the catholic church appears to be an easier job at this point.

Also Russian military reporter Sladkov describes the way Ukrainian forces are operating and taking large area of captured land back.


It appears that the theater was basically a bluff directed to the West and no one really knows what to do with it.
 
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