The War in the Ukraine

xypher

Senior Member
Registered Member
The channel advertises itself as pro-Ukrainian. Or more specifically - pro Zaluzhny and anti Zelensky.
Well, they can say whatever they want but it is as believable as all those China experts who claim that they are "pro Chinese people, just anti CCP". Quite strange to be pro-Zaluzhny but shit on him at the same time by claiming that every move VSU does is useless, then repeat all the other Russian narratives. It is clearly a pro-Russian channel.

I would take information that comes from blatantly pro-Russian or pro-Ukrainian\Western sources with a grain of salt, they are almost always 180 of eachother - e.g. one side paints Lyman as if Ukraine will be sieging Moscow tommorow despite the fact that even liberating all of their eastern territories is going to be almost mission impossible (due to obvious disparity in available manpower, firepower and resources), the other is coping that they did not want Lyman anyway despite the fact that they were still holding it when they got half-circled and even called reinforcements until they were forced to retreat.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Another factor we should consider is that there seem to be a disconnect between the airforce and army units, they kinda seem to be doing their own thing rather than having a unified command structure where ground elements can easily call in airstrikes, rather that fire support role is largely filled by tube artillery.

While it has been a much discussed topic, recent communications show that the intensity of artillery fire has lowered since the offensives in the months prior where up to 60,000 shells were fired in a day, whether that is due to distributed nature of logistics for avoidance of HIMARS fires or Russia is actually running low on ammunition we do not know. Either way recent events may be the wake up call for the Russian aerospace forces to start taking on more risks, lest they become the next scapegoat to be blamed in case Ukraine keeps advancing.
well typically calling in airstrikes for a CAS role is quite a luxury that was mostly seen in GWOT. For the US in larger wars like Vietnam, Korea, even Gulf War 1, etc. it always degenerated into Air Force doing air force things and the Army doing army things. Even Battle of 73 Eastings didn't have Iraqi armor get found and then airstriked, it was just an armor on armor battle. It's understood that it's better to have organic fire support to lower levels which is why you have 122 mms and helicopters integrated with maneuver brigades and battalions, since 152 mms are very heavy (especially the ammo) and have a range long enough to require a dedicated logistics chain and doctrine that might not fit well with the logistics of maneuvering units. It's even harder to request air support.

My question is where are the Kh-15 and Kh-55 strikes on infrastructure, bases, logistics dumps, etc by Russian strategic bombers?
 

baykalov

Senior Member
Registered Member
Well, they can say whatever they want but it is as believable as all those China experts who claim that they are "pro Chinese people, just anti CCP". Quite strange to be pro-Zaluzhny but shit on him at the same time by claiming that every move VSU does is useless, then repeat all the other Russian narratives. It is clearly a pro-Russian channel.

I would take information that comes from blatantly pro-Russian or pro-Ukrainian\Western sources with grain of salt, they are almost always 180 of eachother - e.g. one side paints Lyman as if Ukraine will be sieging Moscow tommorow despite the fact that even liberating all of their eastern territories is going to be almost mission impossible (due to obvious disparity in available manpower, firepower and resources), the other is coping that they did not want Lyman anyway despite the fact that they were still holding it when they got half-circled and even called reinforcements until they were forced to retreat.

I haven't seen this particular video on any pro-Russian Telegram channel.

The video itself was distributed by Ukrainians, it was filmed by Ukrainians. This particular telegram channel specifies that the bodies in the street have blue bands.

What are we really arguing about, since this telegram channel advertises itself as pro Ukrainian!?
 

Weaasel

Senior Member
Registered Member
Another factor we should consider is that there seem to be a disconnect between the airforce and army units, they kinda seem to be doing their own thing rather than having a unified command structure where ground elements can easily call in airstrikes, rather that fire support role is largely filled by tube artillery.

While it has been a much discussed topic, recent communications show that the intensity of artillery fire has lowered since the offensives in the months prior where up to 60,000 shells were fired in a day, whether that is due to distributed nature of logistics for avoidance of HIMARS fires or Russia is actually running low on ammunition we do not know. Either way recent events may be the wake up call for the Russian aerospace forces to start taking on more risks, lest they become the next scapegoat to be blamed in case Ukraine keeps advancing.
Months prior, Russia was heavily using artillery because it was on the offensive first in Mariupol and then in Luhansk locations like Rubizhne, Popasna, Severodonetsk, and Lysychansk. Since July, until the Ukrainian counter offensive in early September, all was much more quiet on the far north front. Russia did not press on its advance from Lysychansk with a truly concerted effort to take Siversk and Bahkmut and indeed, in the Donbass and Kharkov, most of the fighting has been carried out by the Donetsk and Luhansk Militias, as well as Wagner, at much less intensity than the efforts to take Mariupol, Popasna, and the Severodonetsk Conurbation. In the South, such as Kherson and Zhaporizizhia, that is where Russia has concentrated the bulk of its regular troops.

The Russians are obviously having or had trouble deploying the necessary amount of manpower and materiel to quickly arrest the situation in Northern Donbass because they are slow. Carpet bombing a major forward concentration of the enemy's troops, even if the casualties are not great, sews chaos and confusion of the likes artillery cannot cope with. The Russians must be prepared to risk a few such runs on Siversk and Lyman. Russia has claimed Donbass as part of it's territory, so why such pusillanimity when faced with an onslaught on one's own supposed territory?
 

Weaasel

Senior Member
Registered Member
well typically calling in airstrikes for a CAS role is quite a luxury that was mostly seen in GWOT. For the US in larger wars like Vietnam, Korea, even Gulf War 1, etc. it always degenerated into Air Force doing air force things and the Army doing army things. Even Battle of 73 Eastings didn't have Iraqi armor get found and then airstriked, it was just an armor on armor battle. It's understood that it's better to have organic fire support to lower levels which is why you have 122 mms and helicopters integrated with maneuver brigades and battalions, since 152 mms are very heavy (especially the ammo) and have a range long enough to require a dedicated logistics chain and doctrine that might not fit well with the logistics of maneuvering units. It's even harder to request air support.

My question is where are the Kh-15 and Kh-55 strikes on infrastructure, bases, logistics dumps, etc by Russian strategic bombers?
They claim to be striking bases every single day with missile strikes. Such missiles strikes obviously do not do as much damage, even if precise, as strategic carpet bombing. Being carpet bomb when one is not used to it, in particular is devasting to moral.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
They claim to be striking bases every single day with missile strikes. Such missiles strikes obviously do not do as much damage, even if precise, as strategic carpet bombing. Being carpet bomb when one is not used to it, in particular is devasting to moral.
they don't have the capability or equipment to do carpet bombing. Many of their bombers do not even come with dumb bomb racks, they were replaced by missile launchers. They also don't have complete SEAD. Russian MRLS can take the role of tactical fire support with effects similar to carpet bombing, yet again they seem to be MIA.
 

xypher

Senior Member
Registered Member
I haven't seen this particular video on any pro-Russian Telegram channel.

The video itself was distributed by Ukrainians, it was filmed by Ukrainians. This particular telegram channel specifies that the bodies in the street have blue bands.

What are we really arguing about, since this telegram channel advertises itself as pro Ukrainian!?
It does not matter what they claim to be, what matters is what they are actually posting - they are pro-Russian. The video itself was filmed by Ukrainian military but the whole description and narrative is made by this channel. They claim that the destroyed tanks and dead bodies belong to VSU based on a single body with one blue tape on the back of his head (VSU uses them around arms and legs), which is a pretty flimsy evidence considering that his equipment is similar to what Russian soldiers wear, not VSU.
 

xypher

Senior Member
Registered Member

Weaasel

Senior Member
Registered Member
they don't have the capability or equipment to do carpet bombing. Many of their bombers do not even come with dumb bomb racks, they were replaced by missile launchers. They also don't have complete SEAD. Russian MRLS can take the role of tactical fire support with effects similar to carpet bombing, yet again they seem to be MIA.
Mrls do not have the same effect as aerial carpet bombs. The Russians scored an own goal if they do not have the means to deliver large pay load dropping bombs.
 
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