The War in the Ukraine

memfisa

Junior Member
Registered Member
A-10 is a good plane, but basing their hope on that aircraft is again an obsessive compulsive disorder that old US weapons are wonder toys.

SU-25 is way better in their situation with his capacity of using a wide variety of fuels, including diesel, gasoline, petrol, kerosene and avgas. Their stockpiles of soviet bombs and ammunitions for the type are probably not exhausted. The big problem is that they have none available anymore to be given most probably...
But brrrrt... It would be a game changer. Not like Su25 goes brrrrt right? Oh wait it does, and it has proven itself to be the aircraft that does the work in this conflict

A10 wont change a thing, neither will Su25 in the hands of Ukr pilots before combat attrition reduces them to nothing worth talking about. Much like the rest of the aircraft Ukraine had in its inventory when this thing started

They should just stop this wunderwaffen crap and send B2s and F22s already. Show us all how godmode they are
 

FriedButter

Colonel
Registered Member
Some strange business happening in Germany re Ukraine:
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But then:
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I think Scholz is just playing dumb in the public again. I don't think there will be much more military aid coming from the EU in the future.

They are just playing politics due to public opinion. EU stockpiles of material and equipment has always been lacking in the first place. So it isn’t too surprising they are already depleted. It’s up to the Americans now but I wonder how long they can maintain it either. It will take several years for the US to replenish their own and their allies weapons stockpile.
 

obj 705A

Junior Member
Registered Member
The mother of the executor of the "Dougina" assassination, told RT: I can't believe my daughter is so crazy to take my granddaughter with her

In an interview with RT, the mother, Nadezhda Ginadevna, expressed her astonishment at the evidence that her daughter, who was born and raised in the city of Mariupol, was involved in the assassination of journalist Daria Dugina, expressing her shock at the killing of journalist Dugina, adding that "Russia brings humanitarian aid and medicine to us here."

The mother of the suspect stated that her daughter did not serve in the extremist Azov battalion, (banned in Russia and listed as terrorism), noting that she worked as an official in a sports complex, and then joined
Ukrainian armed forces for a lot of money.


She said that as a mother she could not believe that her daughter had taken her baby with her to the terrorist attack, adding, "I have been talking to her for a long time. I sent her a message yesterday but no reply. She went abroad to save her children."

The mother of the suspect in the killing of the Russian journalist and the daughter of a great Russian thinker spoke of the fact that there is a lot of pressure on the family now on the Internet, noting that she could not believe her daughter's involvement in this terrorist act.

She said of the video distributed by the Russian Federal Security Service, in which her daughter Natalia appeared in Moscow driving her car, it was a surprise and a shock to her, adding, "I didn't even know where she was. She didn't say anything. She wanted to earn money for her children. Yes she served in the Ukrainian army."

The mother expressed her bewilderment, saying: "When it all started (the war) it was difficult for us, but we accepted this situation. However, we were always outside politics. What happened and how it happened? I don't know."

She stated that her daughter, the main suspect in this crime, "left for Europe with her children at the end of March. I called from Spain. I don't know what it means to kill someone else's child. Especially when you have a child. The Mini Cooper that was shown really belongs to her." ".

She explained that her daughter was "taking her eldest son (20 years) with her to Europe. Now I don't know where he is. I won't call her. It's all hard! I have to take medicine. I was shocked by what they say. And about Azov and about the fact that she changed her hair dye." .

The mother of the suspect in the murder of the Russian journalist continued: "We have a problem in our house too. Like the ones who killed their daughter. I love her so much and I can't believe it. I think it's all about politics. I texted her and said I don't believe it."

The mother pointed out her difficult situation by saying: "I can't ask her to turn herself in, because I don't think she did it. She went there with her daughter. Her daughter could have been left somewhere if she decided to carry out a terrorist attack. There are relatives who she can be left with. I can't believe She's that crazy."

"If I had any suspicions, I would ask her to surrender," she said again. "She was in Spain, in France. I don't know who these women Natalia was seen with in Vienna. Perhaps those who support her?"

The mother recounted that her husband "is shocked, he has high blood pressure. And I have heart disease. Very difficult. After reading the information on the Internet, we realize that something is not right. I hope we will find out the truth one day."

"How can I believe that she took her daughter with her to get involved? I think now she knows how to act," the mother said.

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Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
The mother of the executor of the "Dougina" assassination, told RT: I can't believe my daughter is so crazy to take my granddaughter with her

In an interview with RT, the mother, Nadezhda Ginadevna, expressed her astonishment at the evidence that her daughter, who was born and raised in the city of Mariupol, was involved in the assassination of journalist Daria Dugina, expressing her shock at the killing of journalist Dugina, adding that "Russia brings humanitarian aid and medicine to us here."

The mother of the suspect stated that her daughter did not serve in the extremist Azov battalion, (banned in Russia and listed as terrorism), noting that she worked as an official in a sports complex, and then joined
Ukrainian armed forces for a lot of money.


She said that as a mother she could not believe that her daughter had taken her baby with her to the terrorist attack, adding, "I have been talking to her for a long time. I sent her a message yesterday but no reply. She went abroad to save her children."

The mother of the suspect in the killing of the Russian journalist and the daughter of a great Russian thinker spoke of the fact that there is a lot of pressure on the family now on the Internet, noting that she could not believe her daughter's involvement in this terrorist act.

She said of the video distributed by the Russian Federal Security Service, in which her daughter Natalia appeared in Moscow driving her car, it was a surprise and a shock to her, adding, "I didn't even know where she was. She didn't say anything. She wanted to earn money for her children. Yes she served in the Ukrainian army."

The mother expressed her bewilderment, saying: "When it all started (the war) it was difficult for us, but we accepted this situation. However, we were always outside politics. What happened and how it happened? I don't know."

She stated that her daughter, the main suspect in this crime, "left for Europe with her children at the end of March. I called from Spain. I don't know what it means to kill someone else's child. Especially when you have a child. The Mini Cooper that was shown really belongs to her." ".

She explained that her daughter was "taking her eldest son (20 years) with her to Europe. Now I don't know where he is. I won't call her. It's all hard! I have to take medicine. I was shocked by what they say. And about Azov and about the fact that she changed her hair dye." .

The mother of the suspect in the murder of the Russian journalist continued: "We have a problem in our house too. Like the ones who killed their daughter. I love her so much and I can't believe it. I think it's all about politics. I texted her and said I don't believe it."

The mother pointed out her difficult situation by saying: "I can't ask her to turn herself in, because I don't think she did it. She went there with her daughter. Her daughter could have been left somewhere if she decided to carry out a terrorist attack. There are relatives who she can be left with. I can't believe She's that crazy."

"If I had any suspicions, I would ask her to surrender," she said again. "She was in Spain, in France. I don't know who these women Natalia was seen with in Vienna. Perhaps those who support her?"

The mother recounted that her husband "is shocked, he has high blood pressure. And I have heart disease. Very difficult. After reading the information on the Internet, we realize that something is not right. I hope we will find out the truth one day."

"How can I believe that she took her daughter with her to get involved? I think now she knows how to act," the mother said.

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Is she a scapegoat ? I don't know and we probably never know but someone planted that bomb. Parents protecting their children is an historical fact even for the worse kids on earth... so a sad story without any cue and real purpose.
 

zxcv872

New Member
Registered Member
I have a few thoughts on the subject of maneuver warfare in Ukraine. I will begin by saying that I am by no means an expert on military matters or military history, and I could easily be mistaken or misguided in my thinking. I post here because I think this forum is one of the best to get constructive criticism on thoughts on this subject. Many of the points have been already raised here, I include them for completeness of the reasoning.

Some, on this forum and in many other, say that Russia could be more successful in the war in Ukraine by using more maneuver, and the reason they don’t is organizational deficiency stemming from mismanagement. In essence, the claim is, that if von Moltke the elder had been in charge of the Russian army for the last 10 years, then the Russians would have captured Lviv already. It is not obvious to me that this is true. I can think of several other reasons why it might be very hard for Russian forces to outmaneuver Ukrainian forces, and also hard to meaningfully exploit any successful maneuvers, when I consider the following:

(1) Ukraine is assisted by the spy planes and satellites of NATO countries, as well as their apparatus for processing the collected data

(2) Russian aviation can’t beat late Soviet air defenses

(3) Ukraine uses stores and factories that are outside Ukraine

(4) The ubiquity and sophistication of anti-tank weapons

(5) The ubiquity and sophistication of drones and thermal sensors

The Russians can’t surprise the Ukrainians due to (1). Russian forces can’t pin Ukrainian forces with aircraft while they themselves maneuver due to (2). Russia can’t interdict the supply of fuel to Ukrainian forces due to (2). Russia can’t destroy Ukraine’s stores of fuel due to (3).

The concave geometry of the front means that Ukrainian forces have less distance to travel to relocate than Russian forces. The concavity of the front is likely not an arbitrary choice by Russia. It may partly be due to random success early in the war. However, likely Russia focused a lot on protecting the mouth of the Russian internal canal system and to have a land bridge to Crimea to back up the Kerch strait bridge.

Even if Russia manages to maneuver to achieve temporary local numerical superiority at some point, that still might not help much, because of technology that benefits the defender.

The constraint for artillery is not so much the number of artillery pieces in the area, rather the constraint is the targeting. A few artillery pieces can still do a lot of damage to targets in the open if they are fed a lot of good targeting data. If local artillery is not enough, there is some types of artillery which can give support from up to 120km away. Artillery is of course not new to war. However, (5) means new enhanced ability to see targets. Advancing forces are much more vulnerable both to being seen and to taking damage from artillery than a static defender hiding in some urban area or treeline trench. Russian vehicles are old, or at least the base design is old, and I don’t think they were designed with thermal stealth in mind.

Anti-tank weapons let a small defending force negate the strength of the ”breakthrough weapons” of an attacking force. Anti-tank missiles and rockets have been used in wars before, and tactics have been devised to deal with them. However, NLAW, Javelin, Stugna-P, Corsar, Brimstone, etc, are not like the older weapons that have been mainly used before. They are more likely to hit and more likely to cause critical damage, and it is not possible to break the guidance by suppressing the operator. There is also the sheer quantity. On April 7, Mark Milley said that Ukraine had received 60,000 anti-tank weapons and 25,000 anti-aircraft weapons from various countries, while Lloyd Austin said that US aid to Ukraine included over 5,000 Javelin missiles and over 7,000 other anti-tank weapons.

It is not possible to simply bypass defenders, and I think this was demonstrated in March/April. Ukrainian defenders won’t quickly collapse just because they might get cut off from the main Ukrainian body. Russia doesn’t have enough forces to properly cordon off every defended point while continuing with the main advance, so Russian rear lines will be harassed.

Then there is the issue of rivers, of which there are many in Ukraine. If (1) or (5) spots the pontoon bridge, then the crossing fails. Crossing forces and the bridge will be destroyed by artillery, and the already crossed forces will be stranded.

Some argue that all the popular theory and conventional wisdom prescribes maneuver. However, Russia has shifted through several radically different tactics in this war and apparently concluced that static warfare works best under the circumstances. If the empirical experience does not align with theory, one should at least consider the possibility that maybe it is the theory rather than the practice which is wrong.

It is hardly unprecedented that prevailing military paradigms don’t work. Before WW1, everyone worshipped maneuver warfare. So they invested mainly in light field guns and shrapnel shells. For the most part, that didn’t work out so well in WW1. Yet in WW2, maneuver worked great against France. One of the main deities in the pantheon of maneuver, von Moltke the elder, famously wrote: ”No plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first encounter with the main enemy forces. Only the layman believes that in the course of a campaign he sees the consistent implementation of an original thought that has been considered in advance in every detail and retained to the end.”, or more concisely paraphrased, ”no plan survives contact with the enemy”. It seems to me that sometimes doctrine also does not survive contact with the enemy.

Some argue that the problem is that Russia cannot execute proper maneuver as prescribed by theory because of a logistical organization that has been neglected and badly trained. In June, Oleksandr Danylyuk said that Russian artillery fires 50,000 rounds per day. On August 16, Valery Zaluzhny said that Russian artillery fires 40,000-60,000 rounds per day. So the Russian logistical organization supports the firing of about 50,000 shells and rockets per day, while operating under a hail of SRBMs that are targeted by (1). To me, even when considering that these numbers are for static warfare, this doesn’t sound like the numbers of a logistical organization that has been neglected and badly trained. If this level of performance is not enough, I wonder what level the theory requires, and if the theory also requires the soldiers to perform 720 degree backflips riding unicycles on thin wires while simultaneously playing chess and backgammon.

Some point to the numerous historical examples where maneuver was used with great success. However, there are usually key differences that can be distinguished. For example, in the Gulf Wars, none of the five points above were applicable. When evaluating the results of practical experiments, if more than one variable was being varied, it is very hard to disentangle which variable caused what.

If the reason for Russian maneuver problems is Russian organizational deficiency, it seems germane to flip this and ask: why didn’t Ukraine exploit Russian weakness in the supreme technique of war that is maneuver to decisively defeat the Russians already? Ukraine has (had) plenty of tanks and other armored vehicles. Is it because Ukraine’s military organization is equally deficient? Why wasn’t this deficiency fixed during 8 years of NATO training? Or is it because the feasability of maneuver warfare depends on the equipment of the enemy?

Some might argue that Russia could have anticipated and alleviated problem (2) ahead of time. Yet how much money would that require? The US solution to that problem is F-35, APG-81, ASQ-239, ALQ-99, Next Generation Jammer, ALE-50, etc. Does Russia have money to develop, manufacture, maintain and operate their own equivalents in sufficient quality and quantity, considering other critical priorities such as a large nuclear weapons stockpile, ICBMs, SSBNs, Avangard, Status-6, Buresvestnik, Tu-160, Zircon, SSNs, satellites, S-400, S-500, etc?

The Su-57 is less advanced than the F-35 and Russia can’t afford it. Russia has lagged and struggled with AESA radars on fighter jets and air defense systems. Can the Russian electronics industry develop and manufacture sufficiently good avionics at reasonable cost? Russia doesn’t have much civilian electronics industry and expertise to leverage, so the state will have to pay for almost the entire value chain. ”Just build superweapons” doesn’t seem to me like a constructive proposal on how to solve the problem. Also, in many parts of Ukraine there is the problem of Ukraine not even having to turn on their search radars because Russian planes are visible to NATO AEW.

Maneuvering reduces the throughput of the logistical organization compared to not maneuvering, and this is most detrimental to the side that has more artillery and more heavy and complex vehicles. So the Russian conclusion might be that more maneuver would just mean a reduction in their advantages for no benefit.
 

zxcv872

New Member
Registered Member
I also have some thoughts on the Russian pace of advance.

Some say that the extremely slow pace of Russian advance is evidence that Russia’s current way of fighting is going badly, because Russia would advance faster if they could. After all, Sun Tzu wrote: ”There is no instance of a nation benefitting from protracted warfare.” In his day, protracted war was certainly costly, because a man who was away on campaign was a man not at home working in the fields. And this mattered a lot because most of the economy was farming using highly labor intensive methods.

The Russian soldiers are full-time soldiers. If they were not at war, they would be training for war. Russia is not conscripting aerospace and petroleum engineers and sending them to the front. The separatists use conscripts in large numbers, however the separatist states aren’t big economies to begin with. Due to damages from fighting both before and after Feb 24, and the disruption of supply chains from Ukraine’s 2017 decree to ban trade with the separatist-controlled areas, they likely don’t have much economic potential anymore except maybe coal mining. And Russia will likely have logistical difficulties in exporting the coal Russia itself already produces due to the EU ban on Russian coal. Due to the deteriorating relations with the west and fresh bad experiences with lack of manpower, Russia is unlikely to downsize the army after the conclusion of the war. So is the cost of a slow war radically greater? To me it seems the variable cost of the war to Russia is more determined by the amount of losses it suffers than by the timespan over which those losses occur.

Russia’s apparent preference to use Chechens, Wagner, and separatists in the most casualty-intensive ”cannon fodder” roles on the battlefield, suggests that there is also a political sensitivity in Russia on the issue of casualties.

To advance more slowly on the ground should mean less casualties per square kilometer of ground seized. A less hectic schedule allows more time for artillery to degrade defenses, and it lowers the threshold for cancelling an offensive that isn’t proceeding flawlessly. Fewer and narrower offensives at any given time means more artillery is available for each offensive to suppress the enemy. It also gives more time to properly clear mines and traps.

Ukraine can’t produce its own weapons in any significant quantity due to the missile bombardment. What I know of, Ukraine’s suppliers have not shown signs of switching to wartime production levels. No matter how fast Russia might push the gas pedal on the advance, they would never be able to conquer Ukraine before Ukraine’s suppliers can ship whatever weapons they already have in their stores and are willing to part with. So there is no ”ticking clock” to beat.

Suppose the Russians think they achieve a better exchange ratio by fighting at a distance, then this of course becomes the preferred mode of fighting an attrition war. However, I can easily imagine that this mode of fighting can be quite time-consuming. Unless the enemy cooperatively lines themselves up in the open to get shot, it requires a lot of searching, monitoring and waiting for the enemy to expose themselves. It might be hard for the Russians to fight faster if using this mode of fighting, at least unless they get an injection of Iranian drones.

It could be that Russia is focusing on trying to hunt down Ukraine’s air defenses, or trick them into expending missiles on decoys and low-value targets, until Ukraine’s air defenses have been sufficiently degraded to make (2) not applicable. And the Ukrainians aren't letting the Russians do it easily or quickly. While Russian aviation can’t beat late Soviet air defenses, they might think they can beat whatever air defenses Ukraine’s backers are able and willing to supply. The USSR invested much more heavily in ground-based air defense than NATO, and prioritized mobility and independence. In any case, if Ukraine’s backers aren’t switching to wartime production, Russia might be able to eventually degrade NATO-supplied air defenses too.

Also, as has been previously mentioned, the Kremlin is probably hoping for a negotiated solution this winter, as EU countries will feel more domestic political pressure over energy prices and thus might pressure Zelensky make concessions to Russia. So the Kremlin might hesitate to commit harder to the war before it is known for certain whether it will be necessary.

I think it is hard to say if the current tactics are failing or succeeding just on the basis of the pace of advance. A complete scorecard needs to include the losses to both sides, which we don’t know since we only have the propaganda numbers at this time.
 

FriedButter

Colonel
Registered Member
I have a few thoughts on the subject of maneuver warfare in Ukraine. I will begin by saying that I am by no means an expert on military matters or military history, and I could easily be mistaken or misguided in my thinking. I post here because I think this forum is one of the best to get constructive criticism on thoughts on this subject. Many of the points have been already raised here, I include them for completeness of the reasoning.

Some, on this forum and in many other, say that Russia could be more successful in the war in Ukraine by using more maneuver, and the reason they don’t is organizational deficiency stemming from mismanagement. In essence, the claim is, that if von Moltke the elder had been in charge of the Russian army for the last 10 years, then the Russians would have captured Lviv already. It is not obvious to me that this is true. I can think of several other reasons why it might be very hard for Russian forces to outmaneuver Ukrainian forces, and also hard to meaningfully exploit any successful maneuvers, when I consider the following:

(1) Ukraine is assisted by the spy planes and satellites of NATO countries, as well as their apparatus for processing the collected data

(2) Russian aviation can’t beat late Soviet air defenses

(3) Ukraine uses stores and factories that are outside Ukraine

(4) The ubiquity and sophistication of anti-tank weapons

(5) The ubiquity and sophistication of drones and thermal sensors

The Russians can’t surprise the Ukrainians due to (1). Russian forces can’t pin Ukrainian forces with aircraft while they themselves maneuver due to (2). Russia can’t interdict the supply of fuel to Ukrainian forces due to (2). Russia can’t destroy Ukraine’s stores of fuel due to (3).

The concave geometry of the front means that Ukrainian forces have less distance to travel to relocate than Russian forces. The concavity of the front is likely not an arbitrary choice by Russia. It may partly be due to random success early in the war. However, likely Russia focused a lot on protecting the mouth of the Russian internal canal system and to have a land bridge to Crimea to back up the Kerch strait bridge.

Even if Russia manages to maneuver to achieve temporary local numerical superiority at some point, that still might not help much, because of technology that benefits the defender.

The problem isn’t NATO assistances, weaponary, advance technology, drones, mismanagement, etc for Russia inability to outmaneuver or exploiting breakthroughs in Ukraine. It’s the lack of manpower. Russia has chose to fight a war of attrition with limited manpower to reduce the economic and political burden on themselves. They want to inflict massive casualties via artillery and drones while preserving their own military.

One thing to notice is where is the Russian Regular Army. Almost all of the heavy fighting we mostly see has been done by either the Russian Special Forces, Wagner Group, or the People’s Militia. The Regular Army has been mostly sitting in the back acting as a support role with artillery or logistics. A US think tank said something similar to this that most heavy urban fighting is done by the Militia.

For the comparisons of Von Moltke the Elder or WW2, they didn’t fight a war with a huge disadvantage in manpower. Moltke could have captured Lviv a lot earlier but not with a 1:5 manpower deficit against an opponent whose military logistics is essentially impossible to cut off. Either it was WaPo or Times but they did an interview with a Ukrainian soldier who said they get deployed, obliterated by artillery, and withdraw without seeing a single Russian.
 
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