The War in the Ukraine

plawolf

Lieutenant General
The fact that a commercial drone is able to fly within 5km then kamakazi into a fleet HQ without being shot out of the sky by SHORAD is incredible. Surely they can spare a few Tunguska systems to defend such critical areas? Infact gun based AA seems to be quite absent in this conflict when they're the exact type of low-cost AA that would be effective against mass drone usage.
Why do you think NATO ISR often park itself as close off Crimea as they can get for hours on end?

Ukraine has been spamming drones at Crimea very regularly with NATO assets on station to assess Russian AD and look for weaknesses.

We only hear about the ones that get through, but not so much about the vast numbers the Russians do intercept.

When you get to continuously probe and refine your attacks with perfect real time monitoring, it’s basically only a matter of time until you crack any defence.
 

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
Ukraine has been spamming drones at Crimea very regularly with NATO assets on station to assess Russian AD and look for weaknesses.

Yep. Some people like to pretend it is Russia only fighting the Ukranians yet there is an RC-135W currently flying back and forth in front of Crimea as several drones have been intercepted

RC-135.JPG

Wishful thinking, but planes like RC-135W should be fair game if they are obviously doing spy missions, international airspace or not, in the Black Sea, the South China Sea or wherever.
 

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plawolf

Lieutenant General
Yep. Some people like to pretend it is Russia only fighting the Ukranians yet there is an RC-135W currently flying back and forth in front of Crimea as several drones have been intercepted

View attachment 95974

Wishful thinking, but planes like RC-135W should be fair game if they are obviously doing spy missions, international airspace or not, in the Black Sea, the South China Sea or wherever.

It would have been perfectly reasonable for Russia to consider such spy missions as active and vital elements of the Ukrainian kill chain and part of ongoing active attacks, which would give them all the legal cover they need to shoot them down under UN self defence rules. But all those legal arguments means nothing when you don’t have the hard power to fight the US in a conventional war and win.

Not shooting such spy planes down is not surprising, what is surprising is that the Russians are just letting them do their spying so blatantly without any interference or pushback.

China has been dropping chaff and flares directly in the face of Australian and Canadian spy planes and those were not actively taking part in attacks aimed at killing Chinese soldiers. The Russians are not even scrambling fighters to escort these NATO spy planes. That’s the unforgivable part.

Why are the Russians not sending fighters to do barrel rolls over these spy planes? At a minimum fly in close formation and physically block their spying with your fighters’ airframes. That’s all perfectly legal and frankly expected behaviour. Making such spying so easy for NATO is hard to understand and frankly ridiculous.
 

W20

Junior Member
Registered Member
So the policy of "Fighting to the Last Ukrainian" now becomes "Fighting to the Last European".

E x a c t l y

Think for a moment that the London ruling class and their heirs hate Ukrainians of Russian origin, hate Russians, hate Ukrainians of Cossack origin and hate Ukrainians from the part that was Poland. And they not only see how they kill each other, but also screw the Germans. It's just perfect as seen from perfidious Albion.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
It would have been perfectly reasonable for Russia to consider such spy missions as active and vital elements of the Ukrainian kill chain and part of ongoing active attacks, which would give them all the legal cover they need to shoot them down under UN self defence rules. But all those legal arguments means nothing when you don’t have the hard power to fight the US in a conventional war and win.

Not shooting such spy planes down is not surprising, what is surprising is that the Russians are just letting them do their spying so blatantly without any interference or pushback.

China has been dropping chaff and flares directly in the face of Australian and Canadian spy planes and those were not actively taking part in attacks aimed at killing Chinese soldiers. The Russians are not even scrambling fighters to escort these NATO spy planes. That’s the unforgivable part.

Why are the Russians not sending fighters to do barrel rolls over these spy planes? At a minimum fly in close formation and physically block their spying with your fighters’ airframes. That’s all perfectly legal and frankly expected behaviour. Making such spying so easy for NATO is hard to understand and frankly ridiculous.
The calculus is probably that as long as Russia has battlefield and economic war success, the cost of NATO using Ukraine to fight their war is worth it.

While Russia cannot beat US offensively in a land war, it'd be erroneous to believe US would face anything but a lengthy and very bloody stalemate, one that could tip should Russia recieve massive military support or even the arrival of a volunteer army.

If Russia decides to start war against NATO, it would wait for China to also join, that way they have an actual decent chance of taking ground. The moment open war starts between NATO and Russia, China will also attack NATO to defend Russia. Therefore, the attack will only come when its clear that US expansionism cannot be stopped with economic or political means, only by force.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
In a supposed video of the attack you can hear the AA guns firing.
So their AA guns near fleet HQ can't shoot down a slow commercial drone... Isn't this the exact scenario the pantsir system is designed for? Even with western ISR and EW support they must have had 24/7 coverage of SHORAD near such important locations. HIMARS/rocket attack is understandably very hard to intercept, but a subsonic commercial drone?
 

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
Not shooting such spy planes down is not surprising, what is surprising is that the Russians are just letting them do their spying so blatantly without any interference or pushback.

China has been dropping chaff and flares directly in the face of Australian and Canadian spy planes and those were not actively taking part in attacks aimed at killing Chinese soldiers. The Russians are not even scrambling fighters to escort these NATO spy planes. That’s the unforgivable part.

Well, is not like we haven't seen the russians aggressively push out NATO planes before, after all, it is one of NATO's favorite passtimes to whine about "unprofessional interception" by the Russians and we have gotten some fun videos out of them.

So, there is indeed a calculus being made here about not even bothering to disturb the fligths with any sort of interception, but it is anyone guess but I don't think bringing NATO fully in is one of those should they choose to shoot it down is one of those reasons.

It is a hard sell to claim Article 5 when it is you who chose to fly a spy plane over a warzone and is not like the Brits are loved that much by the rest of Europe right now.
 

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
So their AA guns near fleet HQ can't shoot down a slow commercial drone... Isn't this the exact scenario the pantsir system is designed for? Even with western ISR and EW support they must have had 24/7 coverage of SHORAD near such important locations. HIMARS/rocket attack is understandably very hard to intercept, but a subsonic commercial drone?
A low flying small and slow target is quite hard to see with a doppler radar... modification of old cold war era radar for detection of these are quite hard. So we can ditch these against these slow targets.

System like the s-300 didn't fare well in Syria against such target and they are using strela 10 photocontrast sensor to find small ones on the front line in Ukraine and Buk-M3.

Shooting big anti-air missiles over cities like Buk at low level targets can do more damage than a small drone anyway so they can use Pantsir Tunguska and Tor.

It's nice but in an urban area, radar could be occulted by a lot of stuff for low flying target....adding ISR and EW to mess with their capabilities in Crimea.

Ukraine probably launch a bunch of them and at least one will go through. It make headlines, it's troublesome but no air defence are impenetrable. Don't know the extend of damage too.
 
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sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
Turns out the "Ukranians are training on the A-10" is just a shellshocked dude that built a "training facility" with DCS and Thrustmaster HOTAS sticks in the hopes they might receive A-10's eventually.

Also, apparently the A-10 is more survivable than the Su-25 because...reasons.

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Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
Turns out the "Ukranians are training on the A-10" is just a shellshocked dude that built a "training facility" with DCS and Thrustmaster HOTAS sticks in the hopes they might receive A-10's eventually.

Also, apparently the A-10 is more survivable than the Su-25 because...reasons.

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A-10 is a good plane, but basing their hope on that aircraft is again an obsessive compulsive disorder that old US weapons are wonder toys.

SU-25 is way better in their situation with his capacity of using a wide variety of fuels, including diesel, gasoline, petrol, kerosene and avgas. Their stockpiles of soviet bombs and ammunitions for the type are probably not exhausted. The big problem is that they have none available anymore to be given most probably...
 
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