The War in the Ukraine

TK3600

TK3600

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Registered Member
Stealthflanker said:
GMLRS have RCS too.. that makes it a challenging.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1546980665677062144

Ukrainian has been smart by launching BM-27's as a decoy to saturate Pantsyr or other Russian systems. GMLRS itself however have relatively small RCS of 0.03 sqm in Pantsyr engagement radar working band (35-37 GHz) while in S-band it's bit higher 0.04-0.05 sqm. Still challenging tho. This 0.03 sqm target will be detected at 7 km.. a very short distance, but since Pantsyr is automated, it can react fast enough in order of 4 seconds which still allows intercept of at least 1 or if multiple target channel i hypothesized in the tweet is acceptable 5 rockets. But 6th rocket will get through.

Thus to adequately protects some ammo dumps or anything from such saturation strike.. Multiple systems have to be present which will be cumbersome.

My conclusion from the tweet is that Russian systems got saturated. Discrimination will be hard as MLRS rocket have no real JEM (Jet Engine Modulation) to identify it. so there would be no telling which is GMLRS and which is BM-27 or other Ukrainian projectiles. It would require higher resolution radar, particularly range and maybe narrower beamwidth which may not be practical for SAM engagement radar.

How impractical ? for example high range resolution requires either short pulsewidth maybe in 0.1 microseconds or less which will cuck power aperture performance or simply need very high PRF that range measurement become almost impossible or inaccurate due to need to use FM Ranging or high pulse compression ratio which entails long pulse which cuck minimum range (e.g 100 microseconds).
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So what Russia can do ? Well either they go the great scud hunt mode or just take more land, and therefor keep Himars out of range by occupying positions they might be taking in the first place.
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BoraTas said:
C-RAM has always been a very hard task for several reasons.
1- Artillery projectiles have relatively low flight times but are usually supersonic. Quick reaction times and fast SAMs are needed. C-RAM task is more similar to ABM rather than traditional air defense.
2- Artillery projectiles are relatively cheap and small. Thus they are very common on the battlefield and are usually launched in large numbers. So you need relatively cheap and small (important for magazine depth and logistics) SAMs. Your radars need to be capable of detecting small objects from long distances and tracking many of them simultaneously. And the system needs to be able to engage many targets simultaneously.
3- High speeds, small interceptor missiles and small targets collectively mean high-resolution sensors are needed. This further complicates the missile and radar design

So the task is pretty specialized as you can see. I don't think you will get an effective C-RAM out of improvised solutions. Russia is probably intercepting a lot of rockets but a lot of them will continue to go through. And GPS guided rockets don't have a different flight trajectory at all unless they do a pull-up maneuver. They use GPS to correct deviations.
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I really question the effectiveness of C-RAM vs artillery shell. Considering how cheap arty shells are and how expensive the solution is, the system itself becomes a juicy target for massed artillery. It will not stop anything better than a terrorist strike.
 
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Stealthflanker

Senior Member
Registered Member
TK3600 said:
I really question the effectiveness of C-RAM vs artillery shell. Considering how cheap arty shells are and how expensive the solution is, the system itself becomes a juicy target for massed artillery. It will not stop anything better than a terrorist strike.
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The main problem is that magazine depth as clearly there are always more artillery projectiles needs to be intercepted than the interceptor's missiles.

i.e Snake Island, Russian deploys at least 4 mobile SAM's Pantsyr and Tor but they only have in total assuming 2 Tor and Pantsyr 56 missiles. While Ukraine can cheaply saturates them from the shore with hundreds of rockets and artillery shells.
 
TK3600

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
Stealthflanker said:
The main problem is that magazine depth as clearly there are always more artillery projectiles needs to be intercepted than the interceptor's missiles.

i.e Snake Island, Russian deploys at least 4 mobile SAM's Pantsyr and Tor but they only have in total assuming 2 Tor and Pantsyr 56 missiles. While Ukraine can cheaply saturates them from the shore with hundreds of rockets and artillery shells.
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Expensive aa units are themselves a very juicy target for artillery. The only reason to use them is if they provide some kind of protection to even juicier target like major command center or something. Even then it is questionable because enemy can always just bring more arty and far cheaper than whatever system you used. So no even if you have the mag depth it wont stop much volume of strike either.
 
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Soldier30

Senior Member
Registered Member
Russian troops captured an American M777 howitzer in Ukraine, and a photo of another destroyed howitzer was also published. The captured howitzer was damaged, but according to the military correspondent, the DFCS digital fire control system unit was not damaged, it will be sent for study.

 
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