The War in the Ukraine

FADH1791

Junior Member
Registered Member
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... that Russia doesn't understand air power and as a result it doesn't have the necessary resources and skills to conduct air operations on a level that is appropriate to this campaign. So they keep quiet and hope nobody realizes that they were all of them deceived for another ring was made and it cost all of the money for training and munitions.

Soviet Union ended 30 years ago. Russian Air Force is a solution to a political problem - not a tool for military strategy. RuAF commanders know that:
  • their air force is mostly a bluff
  • they are already taking problematic losses
  • if they attempted to fight a proper air campaign - for which they are not prepared and have not received training - the losses would quickly become unsustainable
The losses don't have to come from the enemy. There's a reason why e.g. Desert Storm air campaign lasted five weeks but not six or seven. It takes a machine effort to fly and there's a point at which planes simply fall out of the sky. Air forces know how to maintain optempo and when to quit.

Calculate like this:

After close to four months of combat operations (15 weeks = 3x Desert Storm) number of confirmed losses (destroyed/heavily damaged) to aircraft lost to excessive combat use (requiring overhaul) is at minimum 1:2. So if RuAF already lost 10 Su-34s it lost 20 Su-34s from excessive use. If it lost 13 Su-25s it temporarily lost another 26 Su-25s. If it lost 5 Su-30s it lost 10 more etc. Those are not aircraft which are in regular maintenance that takes a bit longer because of high optempo. They need total overhaul because they were used so much. The rest is available at the usual 60-70% mission capable rate.

I attached aircraft numbers so you can recalculate how many are available - especially including geographical split - after glorious liberation of 20% of a almost-failed state with no economy. Peter I is bursting with pride so much his tomb could power all of Sankt Petersburg.

People who imagine themselves knowledgeable might disagree and point to the fact that Russia has approximately four hundred new 4,5-gen fighters (Su-30SM, Su-35S, Su-34) delivered after 2010 and that should solve everything but there are many factors which enable effective use of this potential (like funding for training of crews which for years has been at very low level, but on which I have little hard data) including three crucial bottlenecks which play a particularly important role in Ukraine:


1. Situational awareness on the ground and at low altitudes within enemy territory

Russia has only nine AWACS aircraft (3 A-50 and 6 modernized A-50U). Initially they operated them in Belarus but now they have shifted to Crimea after loss of Moskva. If two A-50s are on constant patrol that's the entire AWACS fleet that RuAF has available. A-50 is also not a modern system - it's Soviet technology from the 80s. It's worse than old E-3. A-100 is in development and just one airframe has been built for testing.

To that Russia can add only about 20 obsolete Il-20s performing ELINT but these aircraft are in no way sufficient to provide the necessary information in real time. There are only two new Tu-204 ELINT platforms in service. That means Russia is flying with data late by several hours at best and once they're in the air their ability to adapt to a change in tactical situation is limited.

Russia has to fly around on the battlefield using either passive detection or active radar to find targets. Passive detection requires dedicated aircraft flying with pods but they are susceptible to deception - aircraft can be forced to reveal their position just like air defenses. Ukraine can operate an active radar on a Osa launcher, while Buk can wait in ambush. When using active radar the aircraft are subject to inverse square law meaning that they reveal themselves before they detect their targets so it is only a viable tactic outside of NATO detection zone which covers most of western and southern Ukraine. But even then it is not viable for any prolonged period of time because it requires a lot of moving around in the bushes with the searchlight which they can't afford. So they're entirely reliant on what their satellite or ground force recon provides.


2. Aerial refueling

Russia has only eighteen aerial refueling aircraft but since Il-78s are subordinate to Long Range Aviation they nominally support strategic bombers. Su-30s and Su-35s can't carry spare tanks which leaves only Su-34 for long range missions.

Anyone who has ever seen tables for mission planning knows just how much fuel is burnt during any maneuvering even excluding combat. There's a reason why during Desert Storm F-15C flew with four AIM-7Ms and three spare tanks and did not engage until a patrolling AWACS called for it. Just staying in the air is expensive. Moving around? You can't afford it. So you don't do it unless you have to. That's the reality of air combat that is not shown in video games or movies or agitprop online. Air combat is take off, fly for a while, shoot your ordnance, hopefully don't get shot at, come back. It's very short and constrained.


3. Geographical distribution

Russia has split its air force between the military districts attempting to create strategic joint commands. This is the approximate composition of each military district - first figure is RuAF, second is Naval Aviation. It doesn't include bombers.

View attachment 90521

MiG-31s can be disregarded as they are useless in the current conflict and Su-27s are not equipped with systems for proper anti-surface warfare.

You can use my thread on Desert Storm Air Campaign if you want hard data on how numbers translate into results:


The table above does not reflect availability of sufficiently trained crews and readiness of aircraft. Remember that it takes between 2 and 4 years to train a combat pilot in peacetime, and RuAF training was pathologically underfunded. Make your calculations based on dates of delivery of new aircraft as indicated in table below (MiG-29s are withdrawn):

View attachment 90522

This is the location of the units - the map has one or two minor errors but they are not relevant for the subject which is the geographical scale and separating distances.

View attachment 90520

In particular the Eastern MD is a logistical burden. Here's an example of what routes units from EMD have to take to reinforce RuAF in Ukraine. Consider that aerial refueling is an essential part of such operations both for fighters and transport planes carrying other materials.

View attachment 90519

Air combat doesn't have frontlines but it does have boundaries. There's a point at which no amount of Zircons in the world can prevent your opponent from flying an air wing over international waters in a show of force next to one such boundary and if you have nothing to counter it without starting a major conflict you effectively lose without firing a shot.

This is why those numbers and maps matter and why the margins for acceptable losses in RuAF are microscopic.

And as for effectiveness missile strikes - this is Ukrainian air base at Ozerne from earlier in the conflict:

View attachment 90524

It definitely doesn't count as a successful military operation but it could work as modern avant-garde art. You know, the kind that forces you to challenge your preconceptions of what art should be and what it should aim for.

Don't worry. It's only factual data. You are free to ignore it and return to more winning. I heard Russia just captured the town of Veliky Mukhosransk on Seversky Pizdyets from three and a half nazis and their dog. How can they not be tired from so much winning?!
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Soviet Union ended 30 years ago. Russian Air Force is a solution to a political problem - not a tool for military strategy. RuAF commanders know that:
  • their air force is mostly a bluff
  • they are already taking problematic losses
  • if they attempted to fight a proper air campaign - for which they are not prepared and have not received training - the losses would quickly become unsustainable
...
So if RuAF already lost 10 Su-34s it lost 20 Su-34s from excessive use. If it lost 13 Su-25s it temporarily lost another 26 Su-25s. If it lost 5 Su-30s it lost 10 more etc. Those are not aircraft which are in regular maintenance that takes a bit longer because of high optempo. They need total overhaul because they were used so much. The rest is available at the usual 60-70% mission capable rate.
Russia did not lose 10 Su-34s. Only in Oryx's mind. Losses thus far were more like half a dozen aircraft. Russia produces triple that in peace time production in one year. And the entire Su-34 fleet was scheduled to be upgraded to Su-34M status over the next decade. The Su-34M upgrade includes replacing the engine. So the overhaul was already planned and budgeted for. At most this will speed it up by half a decade. Similar deal with Su-30SM2.

You cannot compare peace time production with war time production. The ammunition factories for example changed production schedule from a single shift to three shifts. So far I have not heard of them doing this in the aircraft factories, but the tank factories have been hiring people to work on double shifts. And guess what, a lot of people in the civilian car industry were laid off, because of the West blocking sales of vehicle parts. So there will be loads of mechanics and assembly workers looking for a job. Thousands of them.
China today produces its own aircraft engines to replace the AL-31, Russian aircraft sales to India petered out, and CAATSA sanctions mean Russia is not exporting that many aircraft, so what do you think is the current load factor in Russian military aviation and jet engine factories?

People who imagine themselves knowledgeable might disagree and point to the fact that Russia has approximately four hundred new 4,5-gen fighters (Su-30SM, Su-35S, Su-34) delivered after 2010 and that should solve everything but there are many factors which enable effective use of this potential (like funding for training of crews which for years has been at very low level, but on which I have little hard data)
They are getting trained there on the field right now. Nothing better. And in conditions one could only dream as a combat pilot. Flying in an airbase right next to home, and the enemy has close to zero chance of hitting the base. With the exception of the occasional Tochka missile you can count in a single hand.

Russia has only nine AWACS aircraft (3 A-50 and 6 modernized A-50U). Initially they operated them in Belarus but now they have shifted to Crimea after loss of Moskva. If two A-50s are on constant patrol that's the entire AWACS fleet that RuAF has available. A-50 is also not a modern system - it's Soviet technology from the 80s. It's worse than old E-3. A-100 is in development and just one airframe has been built for testing.
Russia does not need nearly as much AWACS coverage as the US would in a similar conflict because the area for operations is for all intents and purposes inside Russia's own radar network. The exception is the area between Odessa and Lviv because of radar clutter.

The Su-34 comes built-in with Khibiny which can detect and track enemy radio emission sources. And if it came to that Khibiny can also be added to other Flankers.

The A-50 electronics were upgraded with the A-50U upgrade so claiming it is Soviet technology from the 80s is BS.
The first A-50U was delivered to the RuAF in 2011. And they delivered at least 7 of them.

To that Russia can add only about 20 obsolete Il-20s performing ELINT but these aircraft are in no way sufficient to provide the necessary information in real time. There are only two new Tu-204 ELINT platforms in service. That means Russia is flying with data late by several hours at best and once they're in the air their ability to adapt to a change in tactical situation is limited.
The Il-20M has been modernized more than once and all aircraft were currently scheduled to be modernized again until 2025.
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So the airframe is obsolete but the insides have been upgraded more than once.

Russia has only eighteen aerial refueling aircraft but since Il-78s are subordinate to Long Range Aviation they nominally support strategic bombers. Su-30s and Su-35s can't carry spare tanks which leaves only Su-34 for long range missions.
They are operating so close to base. Does it even matter?

MiG-31s can be disregarded as they are useless in the current conflict and Su-27s are not equipped with systems for proper anti-surface warfare.
The Su-27SM3 can do anti-surface strikes with basically all the same weapons as a late model Su-30.

And as for effectiveness missile strikes - this is Ukrainian air base at Ozerne from earlier in the conflict:

View attachment 90524

It definitely doesn't count as a successful military operation but it could work as modern avant-garde art. You know, the kind that forces you to challenge your preconceptions of what art should be and what it should aim for.
Air strikes against airbases are a lot less effective in general than what a lot of people give them credit for. And this is a cruise missile strike so even worse. I am fairly certain the MIC will refine its systems after this conflict. A lot of legacy systems might have been designed at a time when fragmentation weapons were still allowed. So of course effectiveness will be even worse once you change to a regular warhead.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
... that Russia doesn't understand air power and as a result it doesn't have the necessary resources and skills to conduct air operations on a level that is appropriate to this campaign. So they keep quiet and hope nobody realizes that they were all of them deceived for another ring was made and it cost all of the money for training and munitions.

Soviet Union ended 30 years ago. Russian Air Force is a solution to a political problem - not a tool for military strategy. RuAF commanders know that:
  • their air force is mostly a bluff
  • they are already taking problematic losses
  • if they attempted to fight a proper air campaign - for which they are not prepared and have not received training - the losses would quickly become unsustainable
The losses don't have to come from the enemy. There's a reason why e.g. Desert Storm air campaign lasted five weeks but not six or seven. It takes a machine effort to fly and there's a point at which planes simply fall out of the sky. Air forces know how to maintain optempo and when to quit.

Calculate like this:

After close to four months of combat operations (15 weeks = 3x Desert Storm) number of confirmed losses (destroyed/heavily damaged) to aircraft lost to excessive combat use (requiring overhaul) is at minimum 1:2. So if RuAF already lost 10 Su-34s it lost 20 Su-34s from excessive use. If it lost 13 Su-25s it temporarily lost another 26 Su-25s. If it lost 5 Su-30s it lost 10 more etc. Those are not aircraft which are in regular maintenance that takes a bit longer because of high optempo. They need total overhaul because they were used so much. The rest is available at the usual 60-70% mission capable rate.

I attached aircraft numbers so you can recalculate how many are available - especially including geographical split - after glorious liberation of 20% of a almost-failed state with no economy. Peter I is bursting with pride so much his tomb could power all of Sankt Petersburg.

People who imagine themselves knowledgeable might disagree and point to the fact that Russia has approximately four hundred new 4,5-gen fighters (Su-30SM, Su-35S, Su-34) delivered after 2010 and that should solve everything but there are many factors which enable effective use of this potential (like funding for training of crews which for years has been at very low level, but on which I have little hard data) including three crucial bottlenecks which play a particularly important role in Ukraine:


1. Situational awareness on the ground and at low altitudes within enemy territory

Russia has only nine AWACS aircraft (3 A-50 and 6 modernized A-50U). Initially they operated them in Belarus but now they have shifted to Crimea after loss of Moskva. If two A-50s are on constant patrol that's the entire AWACS fleet that RuAF has available. A-50 is also not a modern system - it's Soviet technology from the 80s. It's worse than old E-3. A-100 is in development and just one airframe has been built for testing.

To that Russia can add only about 20 obsolete Il-20s performing ELINT but these aircraft are in no way sufficient to provide the necessary information in real time. There are only two new Tu-204 ELINT platforms in service. That means Russia is flying with data late by several hours at best and once they're in the air their ability to adapt to a change in tactical situation is limited.

Russia has to fly around on the battlefield using either passive detection or active radar to find targets. Passive detection requires dedicated aircraft flying with pods but they are susceptible to deception - aircraft can be forced to reveal their position just like air defenses. Ukraine can operate an active radar on a Osa launcher, while Buk can wait in ambush. When using active radar the aircraft are subject to inverse square law meaning that they reveal themselves before they detect their targets so it is only a viable tactic outside of NATO detection zone which covers most of western and southern Ukraine. But even then it is not viable for any prolonged period of time because it requires a lot of moving around in the bushes with the searchlight which they can't afford. So they're entirely reliant on what their satellite or ground force recon provides.


2. Aerial refueling

Russia has only eighteen aerial refueling aircraft but since Il-78s are subordinate to Long Range Aviation they nominally support strategic bombers. Su-30s and Su-35s can't carry spare tanks which leaves only Su-34 for long range missions.

Anyone who has ever seen tables for mission planning knows just how much fuel is burnt during any maneuvering even excluding combat. There's a reason why during Desert Storm F-15C flew with four AIM-7Ms and three spare tanks and did not engage until a patrolling AWACS called for it. Just staying in the air is expensive. Moving around? You can't afford it. So you don't do it unless you have to. That's the reality of air combat that is not shown in video games or movies or agitprop online. Air combat is take off, fly for a while, shoot your ordnance, hopefully don't get shot at, come back. It's very short and constrained.


3. Geographical distribution

Russia has split its air force between the military districts attempting to create strategic joint commands. This is the approximate composition of each military district - first figure is RuAF, second is Naval Aviation. It doesn't include bombers.

View attachment 90521

MiG-31s can be disregarded as they are useless in the current conflict and Su-27s are not equipped with systems for proper anti-surface warfare.

You can use my thread on Desert Storm Air Campaign if you want hard data on how numbers translate into results:


The table above does not reflect availability of sufficiently trained crews and readiness of aircraft. Remember that it takes between 2 and 4 years to train a combat pilot in peacetime, and RuAF training was pathologically underfunded. Make your calculations based on dates of delivery of new aircraft as indicated in table below (MiG-29s are withdrawn):

View attachment 90522

This is the location of the units - the map has one or two minor errors but they are not relevant for the subject which is the geographical scale and separating distances.

View attachment 90520

In particular the Eastern MD is a logistical burden. Here's an example of what routes units from EMD have to take to reinforce RuAF in Ukraine. Consider that aerial refueling is an essential part of such operations both for fighters and transport planes carrying other materials.

View attachment 90519

Air combat doesn't have frontlines but it does have boundaries. There's a point at which no amount of Zircons in the world can prevent your opponent from flying an air wing over international waters in a show of force next to one such boundary and if you have nothing to counter it without starting a major conflict you effectively lose without firing a shot.

This is why those numbers and maps matter and why the margins for acceptable losses in RuAF are microscopic.

And as for effectiveness missile strikes - this is Ukrainian air base at Ozerne from earlier in the conflict:

View attachment 90524

It definitely doesn't count as a successful military operation but it could work as modern avant-garde art. You know, the kind that forces you to challenge your preconceptions of what art should be and what it should aim for.

Don't worry. It's only factual data. You are free to ignore it and return to more winning. I heard Russia just captured the town of Veliky Mukhosransk on Seversky Pizdyets from three and a half nazis and their dog. How can they not be tired from so much winning?!
Let's completely discount the historical animus you have toward Russia and go with your appraisal - the RuAF is trash. No biggie, the Russian ground force will just march up to that air base and delete it from existence with massed artillery. We'll see how artsy it looks then.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
This is the inside of an A-50U.
u2QpzUk.png


So much for being "Soviet era". All the radar signal processing and work consoles have been modernized.
 

Janiz

Senior Member
"In Ochakov, Ukro corvette and landing ship were sunk by Russian rocket artillery. If you check the map provided by Hole you can see tiny peninsula liberated by Russians. Apparently there rocket artillery were placed. No official confirmation though."
This corvette was set to become a museum ship and wasn't active for a year at least. Whether it was sunk by Russians or Ukrainians - we don't know. And the second ship (small landing craft) got out safely from Ochakov according to earlier reports.
Air strikes against airbases are a lot less effective in general than what a lot of people give them credit for.
Of course they are as effective as people give them credit for. Russians never claimed that they have technology to conduct those precise strikes and I think that everybody is pretty much aware of that and that's why they rely on numbers more. Nothing new under the sun. This an example of precise airfield strike. If Russians can't do that it doesn't mean it's impossible. They aren't leaders in high tech for a long time.
cpZtQvD.jpg


wwvUcAh.jpg
 

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
Kinda crazy how long it took them to attack it. These ships (especially the corvete) should had been sunk at the first wave of attacks at day 0 or day 1.

Thing is, was it operational in the first place?. Ukrainian Navy was mostly inexistant outside of the few armored boats they had and the Krivak that served as flagship.

Wikipedia mentions the Ukrainians were thinking of turning it into a museum ship in 2021.

Sounds like French or Spanish...

Brazilian portuguese.

Russians never claimed that they have technology to conduct those precise strikes and I think that everybody is pretty much aware of that and that's why they rely on numbers more.

Kalibrs and Iskanders seem quite precise to carry out such strikes, or are we going to go around trust the claims that 110% of every russian missile launched has crashed without hitting anything?

Because if that's the case, I guess the Ukranians have an epidemic of expontaneuously combusting installations and buildings
 
Last edited:

FADH1791

Junior Member
Registered Member
I am sensing a change in tone in MSM:
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Not sure if it's triggered by some kind of impending collapse at Donbas or something, but it feels like the media has started to lay the groundwork for cutting Zelenskyy loose.

From that Guardian article:
600-1000 losses a day seems to be the real casualties. Think of all intensive artillery, aerial and missile bombardment that keeps hitting Ukrainian defensive positions. Add all the air and cruise missile strikes all over Ukraine the numbers are jarring. At the medium that’s 800 losses a day. The UAF can’t keep taking these loses. 60 days from now we are talking about anywhere between 36,000-60,000 losses. That’s horrific.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Of course they are as effective as people give them credit for. Russians never claimed that they have technology to conduct those precise strikes and I think that everybody is pretty much aware of that and that's why they rely on numbers more. Nothing new under the sun. This an example of precise airfield strike. If Russians can't do that it doesn't mean it's impossible. They aren't leaders in high tech for a long time.

wwvUcAh.jpg
That kind of runway damage is easily repaired. It might be a problem for civilian aircraft. But for rugged military aircraft you just brush the debris away and continue as usual. You are better off hitting the facilities and aircraft.

And besides the Israelis have probably hit that runway so often, if they didn't get the coordinates for it nailed down, that would be pure incompetence. They hit the Damacus airport several times a year. And they have done that since like the 1970s.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
I am sensing a change in tone in MSM:
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Not sure if it's triggered by some kind of impending collapse at Donbas or something, but it feels like the media has started to lay the groundwork for cutting Zelenskyy loose.

From that Guardian article:

Does the loss include only the dead or does it include wounded and captured?
 
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