The line of "pro/anti population" will shift as the war progress, don't you think? I don't think those anti-Russian Ukrainians who have fled from these regions would be willing to return to a Russian occupied home. Those lands and jobs will be filled by pro Russian populations when Russia firmly controls them.
The War in the Ukraine
- Thread starter SampanViking
- Start date
Are those M72s?? Check the expiry date!
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Indeed, it’s never been about the population, but the territory.
The main reason this line of thinking has developed was a result of western MSM spin on Russia refusing to allow Azov to ‘evacuate’ civilians to anti-Russian areas and insist on only allowing evacuation to pro-Russian and Russian occupied areas.
But the reason for that policy wasn’t because Putin wanted more subjects, it was because those civilians were overwhelmingly pro-Russian who Avoz was using as human shields.
The Russians see those as their own people, and paid with the blood of their soldiers to minimise casualties to those civilians rather than simply levelling Azov strongholds from afar with overwhelming firepower as America would have done without hesitation.
As the battlefields shift westwards and the sentiment of local populations change, so to will Ukrainian and Russian strategy.
We are already seeing the Ukrainian regular army flee urban population centres rather than grab human shields to fight to the death like Azov extremists (who in the end couldn’t go through with that themselves either). Which is just as well, because if they tried that same BS in areas overwhelmingly hostile to Russia, I don’t think Russian troops will mind much in adopting western solutions to such problems and just obliterate everything with long range firepower and chalk all the dead as enemy combatants.
Indeed, as we get to those anti-Russian areas, we may well see a very marked and deliberate shift in Russian military tactics with one of the aims being to ‘encourage’ the local anti-Russian population to flee further west until they become the EU’s problem.
You can never trust the numbers with regards to enemy combat losses on any conflict. It is too easy to shoot a missile at an aircraft, and see it vanish from radar, and it turns out it went into low altitude flight where the radar isn't effective. All sorts of situations like that happen. While on paper Ukraine did have that many aircraft, from MiG-29, to Su-27, to Su-25, and Su-24, I doubt they could put that many operational. But who knows.
No. That was always BS on Azov's part. The Russians opened evacuation corridors in both directions. They did the same thing in Syria. It was Ukraine who insisted on only allowing evacuation to Ukraine held areas. Russia didn't allow them to evacuate until at least some of the civilians went to Russian territory. Not all. Again, same thing they did in Syria.
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Ukraine have fired their human rights ombudsman. Apparently she was the one behind all the unsubstantiated allegations of mass rapes. The west aren't happy about it, and the UN have condemned the decision for some reason.
I think it's a sign that Ukrainians are serious about peace talks. Their army is collapsing in the east, the west is starting to realise there's not much they can do to stop Russia that won't trigger WW3. It's hard to get Russia to compromise if you're publically talking shit about them.
Then again with the clown Zelensky, you never know.
I think it's a sign that Ukrainians are serious about peace talks. Their army is collapsing in the east, the west is starting to realise there's not much they can do to stop Russia that won't trigger WW3. It's hard to get Russia to compromise if you're publically talking shit about them.
Then again with the clown Zelensky, you never know.
Western and Ukrainian media reported that Poland as well as another unnamed EU country (probably Slovakia) gave Ukrainians whole stock of their spare parts to MiG-29 and Su-25 planes, which allowed Ukraine to put their broken aircrafts back to operation. Probably Poland actually gave whole aircrafts but disassembled them before so they could be moved to Ukraine by train and assembled back to pass as 'repaired' aircrafts.
That wouldn't do much as all ex-Soviet aircrafts at disposal of Ukraine and former Warsaw Pact countries are rather obsolete and have too short ranged missiles. Su-25s might do some damage, but still getting shot down on daily basis.
Nevertheless amount of planes in Ukrainian forces increased and they started flying more often than before
That wouldn't do much as all ex-Soviet aircrafts at disposal of Ukraine and former Warsaw Pact countries are rather obsolete and have too short ranged missiles. Su-25s might do some damage, but still getting shot down on daily basis.
Nevertheless amount of planes in Ukrainian forces increased and they started flying more often than before
Lolwut, Russians are actually slowly gaining ground at the Kharkiv front. I'm guessing a lot of UAF strength here were transferred to Donbax.
The situation in Donbass is more tragic than I expected.
From a French military reporters in Donbass:
“The Russians will crush us”
Donbass: the anger of Ukrainian soldiers at the front
For several weeks, the Russian army has been throwing all its forces to take full control of Donbass, in the east of the country. For several days, the big city of Sievierodonestk has been continuously bombarded by Russia. In this most active part of the front, located in the Luhansk region, the Ukrainian army is on the decline. And a movement of discontent is being born among the soldiers, who complain about the lack of means and the lack of support from their hierarchy.
Installed in the heights of Lyssychansk, the soldiers of the 3rd brigade of the 20th infantry battalion are resting after returning from the front. Below, you can see the Severski Donets River, a strategic watercourse, difficult to cross and which serves as a natural barrier; farther on the columns of smoke rise above Sievierodonestk.
The Ukrainian soldiers describe it as hell on earth: “The Russians are bombing and firing mortars 24 hours a day. It’s non-stop. When you engage your men in there, after two minutes of combat, you already have plenty of wounded that you must evacuate. The new ones arrive and a few minutes later they are dead,” says a Ukrainian soldier.
unbalanced forces
According to several sources, the Ukrainians are now fighting outside the city now controlled by the Russians. Soldiers on the decline, in particular because of an imbalance of forces between the two camps. Sergeant Roman Ilchenko, 32, explains that “the Russians have artillery, armored vehicles, and their forces are five to six times greater”. Faced with this firepower, the Ukrainians note with bitterness the weaknesses of their forces.
Volodymyr Kharchuk, 33 and member of the 20th battalion recounts his last mission in which he was responsible for protecting the retreat of the airborne troops: “We only had machine guns and AK47s. RPGs from 1986. A Degtyaryov machine gun from 1943. And a Maxim machine gun from 1933. And we also have a Swedish NLAW man-portable anti-tank missile, but the battery didn't work. That's all we had." He points out that none of his men had received night vision goggles, or even binoculars. “We had to bring models from home that are usually used for hunting,” says Volodymyr Kharchuk.
The mission he describes ended badly. Once the airborne troops had been extracted, the men of the 3rd Brigade moved towards the bridge over the river, but it was destroyed. The soldiers therefore recount having had to cross on foot, fighting against a strong current. “Our equipment is heavy. So we used our ropes to be able to cross. All this under mortar fire. Our evacuation was successful. But knowing that we were on the other side of the river, the command accused us of being deserters. They threatened us with prison. While they were the ones who ordered us to leave the city, ”explains Volodymyr Kharchuk, adding that his superiors then denied having ordered them to leave Sievierodonestk.
illogical orders
A member of the same unit, Roman Ilchenko specifies that a new task has been assigned to them. Defend the last bridge connecting Sievierodonestk and Lyssychansk. An order which, for him, has no logic.
“It is officially to prevent the Russians from passing. Except that the bridge is already destroyed. It makes no sense to defend him. The Russians can attempt to cross the river anywhere else where it is shallow. My men are ready to fight, but we need equipment, and artillery. Our soldiers are not demoralized, they want to fight. But we no longer believe in our superiors,” he said bitterly. “We fight with patriotism and it is insufficient to defend against such firepower,” adds the “bat” commander.
“The Russians will crush us”
Faced with such means deployed by the Russians, the men are unanimous: Sievierodonestk is already lost and we must react at all costs. Andrei Shevchenko, a 39-year-old soldier, believes that if the Ukrainian army does not strengthen its artillery, it will not be able to do anything. “You can't fight with only AK47s. The Russians are going to crush us. They bombard us from the air, with mortars, we cannot respond with simple Kalashnikovs or short-range rocket launchers. »
So will the Ukrainian army lose the battle of Sievierodonestk? “The city is already lost,” replies the soldier with a gloomy expression. According to him, if nothing changes, the whole Donbass will sooner or later fall into Russian hands.
From a French military reporters in Donbass:
“The Russians will crush us”
Donbass: the anger of Ukrainian soldiers at the front
For several weeks, the Russian army has been throwing all its forces to take full control of Donbass, in the east of the country. For several days, the big city of Sievierodonestk has been continuously bombarded by Russia. In this most active part of the front, located in the Luhansk region, the Ukrainian army is on the decline. And a movement of discontent is being born among the soldiers, who complain about the lack of means and the lack of support from their hierarchy.
Installed in the heights of Lyssychansk, the soldiers of the 3rd brigade of the 20th infantry battalion are resting after returning from the front. Below, you can see the Severski Donets River, a strategic watercourse, difficult to cross and which serves as a natural barrier; farther on the columns of smoke rise above Sievierodonestk.
The Ukrainian soldiers describe it as hell on earth: “The Russians are bombing and firing mortars 24 hours a day. It’s non-stop. When you engage your men in there, after two minutes of combat, you already have plenty of wounded that you must evacuate. The new ones arrive and a few minutes later they are dead,” says a Ukrainian soldier.
unbalanced forces
According to several sources, the Ukrainians are now fighting outside the city now controlled by the Russians. Soldiers on the decline, in particular because of an imbalance of forces between the two camps. Sergeant Roman Ilchenko, 32, explains that “the Russians have artillery, armored vehicles, and their forces are five to six times greater”. Faced with this firepower, the Ukrainians note with bitterness the weaknesses of their forces.
Volodymyr Kharchuk, 33 and member of the 20th battalion recounts his last mission in which he was responsible for protecting the retreat of the airborne troops: “We only had machine guns and AK47s. RPGs from 1986. A Degtyaryov machine gun from 1943. And a Maxim machine gun from 1933. And we also have a Swedish NLAW man-portable anti-tank missile, but the battery didn't work. That's all we had." He points out that none of his men had received night vision goggles, or even binoculars. “We had to bring models from home that are usually used for hunting,” says Volodymyr Kharchuk.
The mission he describes ended badly. Once the airborne troops had been extracted, the men of the 3rd Brigade moved towards the bridge over the river, but it was destroyed. The soldiers therefore recount having had to cross on foot, fighting against a strong current. “Our equipment is heavy. So we used our ropes to be able to cross. All this under mortar fire. Our evacuation was successful. But knowing that we were on the other side of the river, the command accused us of being deserters. They threatened us with prison. While they were the ones who ordered us to leave the city, ”explains Volodymyr Kharchuk, adding that his superiors then denied having ordered them to leave Sievierodonestk.
illogical orders
A member of the same unit, Roman Ilchenko specifies that a new task has been assigned to them. Defend the last bridge connecting Sievierodonestk and Lyssychansk. An order which, for him, has no logic.
“It is officially to prevent the Russians from passing. Except that the bridge is already destroyed. It makes no sense to defend him. The Russians can attempt to cross the river anywhere else where it is shallow. My men are ready to fight, but we need equipment, and artillery. Our soldiers are not demoralized, they want to fight. But we no longer believe in our superiors,” he said bitterly. “We fight with patriotism and it is insufficient to defend against such firepower,” adds the “bat” commander.
“The Russians will crush us”
Faced with such means deployed by the Russians, the men are unanimous: Sievierodonestk is already lost and we must react at all costs. Andrei Shevchenko, a 39-year-old soldier, believes that if the Ukrainian army does not strengthen its artillery, it will not be able to do anything. “You can't fight with only AK47s. The Russians are going to crush us. They bombard us from the air, with mortars, we cannot respond with simple Kalashnikovs or short-range rocket launchers. »
So will the Ukrainian army lose the battle of Sievierodonestk? “The city is already lost,” replies the soldier with a gloomy expression. According to him, if nothing changes, the whole Donbass will sooner or later fall into Russian hands.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
It was naive to expect it to go any other way. And this is just the start, it will get a lot worse for the Ukrainian military.
supercat
Major
This summarizes the attitude of a lot of the Western commentators well: