The War in the Ukraine

tacoburger said:

Honestly I think one of the biggest fuckups of the war was Russia's decision to always go full domestic and not buy any chinese military hardware before the war started. It's kinda insane to think that despite being allies and Russia deciding to invade the 2nd largest country in Europe on it's lonesome, Russia hasn't actually bought any chinese military hardware before, they do buy commercial stuff like DJI drones, radios or components like tires, electronics, bearings and raw materials but not ever a complete weapon system.

Yeah hindsight is 20/20 and there's good reasons for Russia choosing not to buy Chinese weapons systems, Russian equipment being fairly good on it's own especially when compared to Ukraine, Russia being fairly broke, Russia wanting to support it's domestic arms industry and not wanting to look bad in front of their massive arms export market. But I can't help but think that one of the biggest reasons is the Russia believing their own hype about the "2nd most powerful military" and looking down on chinese hardware as always, I find even the average Russian to be quite arrogant, especially towards China even to this day.

Russia must have known that they would get sanctioned after the invasion, that China wouldn't be able to ship them much weapons after the sanctions kicked in in fear of losing it's access to the Western market. That Ukraine was going to be very different from all of their previous invasions, considering it's one of the largest countries in Europe, or that America/NATO/Europe would be providing heavy support to Ukraine.

Chinese hardware generally outclassed Russian hardware, especially in areas like drones, electronics, radar, software and precision weapons, important force multipliers. Even if chinese equipment were equal, or even inferior, having a massive stockpile when deciding to invade the 2nd largest country in Europe would have been a good idea, especially when you know that you're gonna to be sanctioned to death as soon as the war started. Not to mention that smuggling ammo and replacement parts is easier than smuggling in an entire artillery battery or tank division.

Of course, it won't help much now, even if China were to start shipping in large amounts of hardware today. But it would have helped greatly in the initial invasion, in their push to Kiev, if Russia had a few billion dollars worth of carefully selected chinese weapons designed to shore up their weakness in electronic warfare, drone/anti-drone warfare etc etc, things could have gone very differently. And as I said before, smuggling ammo to a MRLS battery is a lot easier than smuggling in an MRLS battery.

It would greatly benefit China too, seeing as it would be a great opportunity to see how chinese hardware stacks up in an actual war and against NATO hardware and it they performed well, a great advisement for their performance to the world and the international arms market. If I were in charge of China, I would have offered Putin a big discount on weapon systems before the war started, granted that Russia provided China with all the raw data and an extensive report on how the hardware performed.

Instead we get this mess of a war where Putin is now asking Iran and north korea of all countries for weapons and ammo, because when you're desperate enough, anything goes. And chinese equipment, despite not even really being in the conflict, are also having their name dragged though the mud alongside with Russia, because the general public tends to lump the two countries military equipment/technology together espically with the long history of chinese/russian weapon development, where Russia has historically been the leader until the last 10 years or so. All because the Russian military industrial complex couldn't get their head out of their ass and see past their own propaganda.

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Sinnavuuty said:

Despite having invaded a country without a navy, Russia has already lost 19 vessels to Ukraine, including 1 submarine (the first lost in a combat context in 80 years) and the "flagship" of the Russian Black Sea Fleet itself. And today, to top it off, Russia lost the headquarters of the Russian Black Sea Fleet, attacked and seriously damaged by a Ukrainian missile. haha

To conclude here:

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Despite strong opposition from some sectors of the Pentagon, the US will send the long-range ATACMS missile to Ukraine.

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tankphobia said:

If I recall correctly the HQ was previously attacked by UAV some months back, it would be insane for the Russians to continue to utilise it as a CnC centre when Ukraine obtained cruise missiles.

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tacoburger said:

Honestly I think one of the biggest fuckups of the war was Russia's decision to always go full domestic and not buy any chinese military hardware before the war started. It's kinda insane to think that despite being allies and Russia deciding to invade the 2nd largest country in Europe on it's lonesome, Russia hasn't actually bought any chinese military hardware before, they do buy commercial stuff like DJI drones, radios or components like tires, electronics, bearings and raw materials but not ever a complete weapon system.

Yeah hindsight is 20/20 and there's good reasons for Russia choosing not to buy Chinese weapons systems, Russian equipment being fairly good on it's own especially when compared to Ukraine, Russia being fairly broke, Russia wanting to support it's domestic arms industry and not wanting to look bad in front of their massive arms export market. But I can't help but think that one of the biggest reasons is the Russia believing their own hype about the "2nd most powerful military" and looking down on chinese hardware as always, I find even the average Russian to be quite arrogant, especially towards China even to this day.

Russia must have known that they would get sanctioned after the invasion, that China wouldn't be able to ship them much weapons after the sanctions kicked in in fear of losing it's access to the Western market. That Ukraine was going to be very different from all of their previous invasions, considering it's one of the largest countries in Europe, or that America/NATO/Europe would be providing heavy support to Ukraine.

Chinese hardware generally outclassed Russian hardware, especially in areas like drones, electronics, radar, software and precision weapons, important force multipliers. Even if chinese equipment were equal, or even inferior, having a massive stockpile when deciding to invade the 2nd largest country in Europe would have been a good idea, especially when you know that you're gonna to be sanctioned to death as soon as the war started. Not to mention that smuggling ammo and replacement parts is easier than smuggling in an entire artillery battery or tank division.

Of course, it won't help much now, even if China were to start shipping in large amounts of hardware today. But it would have helped greatly in the initial invasion, in their push to Kiev, if Russia had a few billion dollars worth of carefully selected chinese weapons designed to shore up their weakness in electronic warfare, drone/anti-drone warfare etc etc, things could have gone very differently. And as I said before, smuggling ammo to a MRLS battery is a lot easier than smuggling in an MRLS battery.

It would greatly benefit China too, seeing as it would be a great opportunity to see how chinese hardware stacks up in an actual war and against NATO hardware and it they performed well, a great advisement for their performance to the world and the international arms market. If I were in charge of China, I would have offered Putin a big discount on weapon systems before the war started, granted that Russia provided China with all the raw data and an extensive report on how the hardware performed.

Instead we get this mess of a war where Putin is now asking Iran and north korea of all countries for weapons and ammo, because when you're desperate enough, anything goes. And chinese equipment, despite not even really being in the conflict, are also having their name dragged though the mud alongside with Russia, because the general public tends to lump the two countries military equipment/technology together espically with the long history of chinese/russian weapon development, where Russia has historically been the leader until the last 10 years or so. All because the Russian military industrial complex couldn't get their head out of their ass and see past their own propaganda.

Click to expand...

tacoburger said:

Honestly I think one of the biggest fuckups of the war was Russia's decision to always go full domestic and not buy any chinese military hardware before the war started. It's kinda insane to think that despite being allies and Russia deciding to invade the 2nd largest country in Europe on it's lonesome, Russia hasn't actually bought any chinese military hardware before, they do buy commercial stuff like DJI drones, radios or components like tires, electronics, bearings and raw materials but not ever a complete weapon system.

Yeah hindsight is 20/20 and there's good reasons for Russia choosing not to buy Chinese weapons systems, Russian equipment being fairly good on it's own especially when compared to Ukraine, Russia being fairly broke, Russia wanting to support it's domestic arms industry and not wanting to look bad in front of their massive arms export market. But I can't help but think that one of the biggest reasons is the Russia believing their own hype about the "2nd most powerful military" and looking down on chinese hardware as always, I find even the average Russian to be quite arrogant, especially towards China even to this day.

Russia must have known that they would get sanctioned after the invasion, that China wouldn't be able to ship them much weapons after the sanctions kicked in in fear of losing it's access to the Western market. That Ukraine was going to be very different from all of their previous invasions, considering it's one of the largest countries in Europe, or that America/NATO/Europe would be providing heavy support to Ukraine.

Chinese hardware generally outclassed Russian hardware, especially in areas like drones, electronics, radar, software and precision weapons, important force multipliers. Even if chinese equipment were equal, or even inferior, having a massive stockpile when deciding to invade the 2nd largest country in Europe would have been a good idea, especially when you know that you're gonna to be sanctioned to death as soon as the war started. Not to mention that smuggling ammo and replacement parts is easier than smuggling in an entire artillery battery or tank division.

Of course, it won't help much now, even if China were to start shipping in large amounts of hardware today. But it would have helped greatly in the initial invasion, in their push to Kiev, if Russia had a few billion dollars worth of carefully selected chinese weapons designed to shore up their weakness in electronic warfare, drone/anti-drone warfare etc etc, things could have gone very differently. And as I said before, smuggling ammo to a MRLS battery is a lot easier than smuggling in an MRLS battery.

It would greatly benefit China too, seeing as it would be a great opportunity to see how chinese hardware stacks up in an actual war and against NATO hardware and it they performed well, a great advisement for their performance to the world and the international arms market. If I were in charge of China, I would have offered Putin a big discount on weapon systems before the war started, granted that Russia provided China with all the raw data and an extensive report on how the hardware performed.

Instead we get this mess of a war where Putin is now asking Iran and north korea of all countries for weapons and ammo, because when you're desperate enough, anything goes. And chinese equipment, despite not even really being in the conflict, are also having their name dragged though the mud alongside with Russia, because the general public tends to lump the two countries military equipment/technology together espically with the long history of chinese/russian weapon development, where Russia has historically been the leader until the last 10 years or so. All because the Russian military industrial complex couldn't get their head out of their ass and see past their own propaganda.

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Abominable said:

No evidence Russia is lacking in tanks, artillery or ammunition. The agreements with DPRK will be to arm them, not vice versa.

Drones were definitely a big shortfall, despite Russian claims about drones before the war it

But it's hard to predict what platforms would be useful in war. Had Russia bought squadrons of TB-2 they would have likely sat around doing nothing, as smaller, more expendable drones are the way to go.

As for Chinese assistance, look at the progress of Russian drones in the war. They went from having none/prototypes only to having one of the most extensive drone armies in the world, outnumbering even what all of NATO could provide the Ukraine. I doubt Russia was capable of doing that without extensive Chinese support.

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james smith esq said:

I’m hoping that Russia gave Lancet drones to DPRK and asked if they could provide about 50,000 by December!

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Reconnaissance drone and a bulletproof vest as gifts from a regional governor on his visit to Russia.

On Saturday he met the Russian defence minister in Vladivostok, where he inspected state-of-the-art weapons, including a hypersonic missile system.

TASS said the “leader of the DPRK received five kamikaze drones and a ‘Geran-25’ reconnaissance drone with vertical takeoff”, using the official name of North Korea.

The report added that the governor of the Primorye region, which borders China and North Korea, also “offered Kim Jong Un a set of bulletproof protection” and “special clothing not detectable by thermal cameras”.

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LawLeadsToPeace said:

Funnily enough, the forner did happen:

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Interestingly enough, those types of drones and individual equipment are being used extensively on both sides. I wont be surprised if we see DPRK produced copies of that equipment being used by both DPRK and Russian troops alike in the future.

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taxiya said:

All your reasoning is a mirror of Vietnam war, US wasn't any better than Russia today even though US was the number one air and sea power, and had overwhelming firepower on the ground. So what is the your point? This kind war is just fought this way, no trick and no amount of "superior" weaponry can make a difference, nobody can do any better.

If we take in Afghan war, it looks even worse for the US retreating from an enemy running on sandals and fighting with only AK and rocket launchers.

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