The War in the Ukraine

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
How many of them can still fly?
Enough. And those which can't can be repaired. They are going to anyway as part of their specific upgrades. Tu-95MSM, Tu-22M3M , Tu-160M. Then eventually these aircraft will be replaced with the PAK-DA bomber later in this decade.

The US bombers are about as old and some of the airframes like the B-1 have major stress from the US wars over the past two decades.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Enough. And those which can't can be repaired. They are going to anyway as part of their specific upgrades. Tu-95MSM, Tu-22M3M , Tu-160M. Then eventually these aircraft will be replaced with the PAK-DA bomber later in this decade.
If RuAF has enough heavy bombers, why doesn’t it use them to carpet bomb the Robotyne breached area and the Ukrainian staging areas? There are plenty of targets in those areas.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Really? Come, we surely can disagree on so much, but to claim, this is repairable is far from anything realistic. Even if the inner hull is not broken - what I cannot imagine - it is so much damaged that repairing it is either not possible or economical doable.

IMO this is just a wreck.

View attachment 118921View attachment 118922

Except that there is no fire marks on the ballast holes. Which means the explosion did not spread to the other compartments and ballast tanks. I already saw those pics, hence my observation that the inner hull --- which is one huge thick metal cylinder of very high tensile strength steel which will put a battleship's to shame --- wasn't breached. The explosion was directed outward into the neighboring areas, rather than the sub itself. Note the sail itself is intact which is also a good indicator of the blast direction.

I have seen ships that are in worst condition that are repaired. This is done by removing damaged sections and replacing it with new ones. As far as cases go, this one is already a leg up, since it's already on the dock and not on the water. I'm referring to ships that are already sunk in shallow water and recovered, restored and put back into active service. Literally battleships that were considered sunk in Pearl Harbor.

Cope tires on Su-34 to protect against hollow charges and kinetic energy penetrators.
Probably in the stern the damage is not so serious, but the impact on the bow was an almost perfect impact for the type of attacking missile (the precision is notable), probably affecting the entire weapons launch system.

The Russians are so incompetent that they cannot prevent images of the damage from being leaked, now the propaganda cannot support the version that the submarine suffered minimal damage.... it is evident that both ships have considerable damage, and perhaps the repairs are as expensive like buying new ships....

There's a US nuclear sub that rammed it's bow into an underwater mountain, totally crushing the bow completely, the collision happening with the sub at full speed. Still limped home and years later, it had a new bow that was transplanted on it. The captain however have to change his career.

The submarine bow itself is a composite shaped cone for the sonar system with tubes for the torpedoes. The bow itself is not part of the inner or pressurized hull even on single hull submarines, much less double hulled. It's not even metal for these sort of teardrop shaped submarines, much like the way the front dome of an aircraft or missile isn't. It's mainly composite to allow for the sonar/sound waves to go through. The worst thing that will happen is you wrecked the front sonar array which itself is a hugely expensive part, but still replaceable.

You can build a new bow with a new bulbous sonar array somewhere else and reattach it to the front of the inner pressure hull.

Repairing a submarine is not as expensive as making a new one because a huge part of the cost comes from bending and forming that inner pressurized hull that's shaped like a cylinder. Because of this steel --- disposing the submarine to scrap --- can be just as expensive which is why there are so many dead submarines still laying around persistently. It is very difficult and very time costly to cut up and recycle this pressurized steel hull. For that matter it's also very expensive and time costly to make, press, form and weld one of these hulls. So the cost equation is mostly to favor restoring it sometime in the future as this is the middle ground. They aren't going to do it now or they are in a hurry to do, so they will leave the sub in the dock for the duration of the war.
 
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Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
A surprising piece of investigative work was published in the New York Times placing blame on Ukraine and not Russia for the Kostiantynivka market missile strike that left over a dozen civilians dead. Normally, this would’ve been treated as malinformation and self-censored. I wonder what prompted them to publish this?

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plawolf

Lieutenant General
So why can they not just cut out the deformities and then rebuild the missing hull bits?

Assuming there is no internal warping.

Your argument has nothing but emotion in it, please try to hold yourself to a higher standard than that.

Nobody has said it will defintely be repaired or that it will defintely be scrapped.

The amount of work needed for that would be prohibitive. It will literally be quicker and cheaper to build a new Kilo.

This isn’t just a hull that needs to be watertight, this is a pressure vessel that needs to be able to withstand significant pressures.

The hole isn’t also just a penetrating hole, but one caused by a massive explosive warhead, which is almost certain to have caused all sorts of pressure and stress damage to the hull throughout the ship.

Even if the inner hull looks fine on the outside, you really shouldn’t trust it to not have all sorts of micro fractures and stress damage that would be extremely difficult and costly to even diagnose.

If I were the Russians and I need to repair this sub for optics sake, I would just tow it to a Kilo manufacturer, scrap it and rename a brand built kilo and say we repaired it. It would be quicker, cheaper and safer.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Even if the Russians cannot repair it, they can repurpose equipment from it to build a new one. They do stuff like that all the time.
For example the flight computer in Soyuz capsules gets reused, and the shell of the capsule burned and bent on reentry gets scrapped.
Again, this is a non-issue. Like I said, the Russians put one such Project 636.3 submarine into service, and have another in trials since the conflict started not even two years ago. They build like two a year of these things. This isn't like losing the Moskva cruiser, or even a Tu-22M3.
 
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Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
If RuAF has enough heavy bombers, why doesn’t it use them to carpet bomb the Robotyne breached area and the Ukrainian staging areas? There are plenty of targets in those areas.
You sure you aren't asking on a behalf of a ww2 time traveller?

Like, if you want to be a single use target practice, you can indeed try medium altitude carpet bombing over the front line. S-300 missile will come, that's it.

You can also try regimental bayonet charges over minefields, attack strongpoints with mounted archers, or with chariots from mausoleum of the first emperor of Qin.

But why? This just won't work.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
You sure you aren't asking on a behalf of a ww2 time traveller?

Like, if you want to be a single use target practice, you can indeed try medium altitude carpet bombing over the front line. S-300 missile will come, that's it.

You can also try regimental bayonet charges over minefields, attack strongpoints with mounted archers, or with chariots from mausoleum of the first emperor of Qin.

But why? This just won't work.
Please follow the thread. Someone suggested RuAF should carpet bomb Ukrainian cities.
 

Hitomi

Junior Member
Registered Member
You sure you aren't asking on a behalf of a ww2 time traveller?

Like, if you want to be a single use target practice, you can indeed try medium altitude carpet bombing over the front line. S-300 missile will come, that's it.

You can also try regimental bayonet charges over minefields, attack strongpoints with mounted archers, or with chariots from mausoleum of the first emperor of Qin.

But why? This just won't work.
What about air launched cruise missile attacks on staging areas or strong points on the Rabotino axis? Not much is heard on that front either. I am just thinking the strategic bombers could be doing a lot more to blunt the current offensive.
 
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