The War in the Ukraine

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Only idiots see rules of war as an inconvenience to be ignored. The rules of war are there to protect both sides and neutral 3rd parties. They were introduced not out of kindness or moral qualms, but due to cold hard practically and the threat of reciprocation.

You mistreat enemy PoWs and they mistreat yours. You terror bomb civilian population centres and they follow suite. Stupid spiteful escalation like these achieved nothing to advance the war effort and only needlessly increased death, destruction and suffering.

Hitting civilian shipping in the modern age is retarded because of the fluidity of flagging and ownership.

If there was a will to do so, the entire Russian tanker fleet could become Chinese flagged almost overnight and just carry on doing exactly what they were doing before with the same crews, cargos and contracts. What is Ukraine going to do? Declare war on China by attacking their flagged tankers?
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Krasnopol strikes on depots, hideouts and vehicles with Orlans doing the targeting.


ATGM hits a Ukrainian troop company, this viewed with thermals.


Osman special forces unit hitting Ukrainian vehicles on the attack at Zaporozhye.

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M777 hit by cluster munitions.

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Captured Mastiff evacuated by the Russian 37th Brigade.

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MSTA-S of the Siberian Association unit hitting an attempted by Ukrainian troops to evacuate.

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Ka-52 hits an armored car trying to hide in the forest line.

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ATGM from the 14th SPN Brigade hits a Ukrainian infiltration group at night. Against troop concentrations, a thermobaric version of the Kornet is used.

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Lancet hits an SPG in Krasno-Limansky.

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Massed attack of Grads or cluster munitions? Ukrainian attack on the Artemovsk area falls under fire from the VDV. Russians claimed 4 tanks and 5 armored vehicles destroyed.

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Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
You do understand potential consequences of your phrase?
My phrase is easily understandable and has a long history of being applied. The only "rules" that exist in a war are what are mutually beneficial to both sides. But even then, the moment one side doesn't want to follow them for whatever reason, these rules just go up to smoke like the nothing they were to begin with

Quite funny how people don't get how the words "rules" and "war" are quite a dichotomy. The moment you begin a war, you automatically break all rules and enter the phase where violence reigns supreme. At that phase, what rules are you even talking about?

Like it's very glorious to be brave when you're abroad and safe.
Don't be a character from good soldier Schweik, this book wasn't written as an instruction.
I am not the one complaining about rules and environmental damage because a couple of ships got hit and everyone is up to arms for it lol.

There are no strict rules in warfare. Look no further than what the civilised West did in the past decades and centuries. There is only self-interest

Okay.

So should Russia start nuking military targets?
Sure if it doesn't want to get nuked back or (most likely) conventionally annihilated by NATO.

If Russia was powerful enough it could do whatever it wanted. That it cannot do so, its because its strength is lacking.

Thats called deterrence. Ukraine can break the "rules" because Russia can't deter it with its own means because it is already deterred by NATO or can't impose high enough costs to it by conventional means
 
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Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
The only "rules" that exist in a war are what are mutually beneficial to both sides.
The corpus of law of armed conflict exists for everyone; while its codification is relatively recent(late 19th century onwards), as a customary law it existed pretty much since the beginning of war.

Specific rules on commerce warfare were invented on behalf of leading maritime nations and neutral nations.
Ukraine can undermine them - sure. It can fight on its own, too, because those aren't rules US/UK would really like to see undermined. And the risks here are larger than the risk of Russia winning.

Yes, Ukraine can play an unrestricted interdiction campaign(in fact it just tested the waters) with a weapon system that specifically can't do a legal blockade. So can Russia - and just by blocking loading facilities to riverine ports (which is perfectly doable, and now technically can be done in reciprocation) will leave Ukraine limited to land transport only.
Also, just to make sure - simply because Ukraine can escalate no further than the Black Sea - doesn't really mean Russia can't either.
The moment you begin a war, you automatically break all rules and enter the phase where violence reigns supreme.
People who thought this way were quite famously hanged(or shot themselves in a bunker). Mostly on the losing side, sure, but some of the winners, too.
There are no strict rules in warfare.
There is a whole body of laws regulating both entry (jus ad bellum) and the armed conflict itself (jus in bello). It's quite developed, has lots and lots of commentary/practice, and is very well established.

While there were lots of separate instances of war crimes on both sides(there are crimes against all laws), it's worth pointing out that generally, both sides tend to stick to the laws of war. Yes, Ukraine is generally more willing to test the boundaries. The risk to overdo it is also one of Ukrainian main risks in the war, because it is fighting on external life support.

Sure if it doesn't want to get nuked back or (most likely) conventionally annihilated by NATO.
Nuked back by Ukraine? It doesn't have means or weapons. Nor will be provided with them, because with nuclear weapons, it's the original owners' fault.

Nuked by NATO? That's a game for two, and while an all-out war will very technically favor the general West (conventional superiority of survivors), at that point it won't matter. To be fair, I wonder if a "united West" will even remain a thing when nukes will start flying around.
Declaring armed neutrality in this case is a very obvious answer.

Conventionally annihilated? Well, I don't remember anyone sane who thinks the Russia-NATO conflict will be conventional. Since the 1950s, nukes are the equalizer of the weaker side - and just so happens that Russian tactical nukes are more than an order of magnitude more plentiful than NATOs(leading to a significant overmatch in overall numbers and delivery means in Russian favor).

TLDR be careful what you wish for.
If Russia was powerful enough it could do whatever it wanted. That it cannot do so, its because its strength is lacking.
It already started a war, which no one interferes with.
Thats called deterrence. Ukraine can break the "rules" because Russia can't deter it with its own means because it is already deterred by NATO or can't impose high enough costs to it by conventional means
The deterred side here is NATO. It's the first conflict in a very long time where the West can not interfere directly.

Ukraine can try to break the rules because it's desperate - and because it's Russian wish to limit the conflict without needless escalations - it plays a long game.
Russia doesn't use nuclear weapons not for the fear of Western retaliation(it ironically is a secondary concern), but (1)because it goes against the basic goals of the war, which is to get a neutral Ukraine, (2)won't be supported inside, (3)will break the unspoken deal with the "global South", China and the rest of the world.
But if pushed enough - sure, you can get to the point where there will be flashes. And this point will probably involve all of us and our families very personally, so please behave.
 
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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Obtf Kaskad strikes again with it's Lancets. Two 2S1 Gvozdika SPGs and a YPR-765 are the victims. These in South Donetsk.

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Another YPR-765 destroyed.

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Some Storm Shadow and SCALP missiles that attacked Crimean bridge were shot down by Pantsyr.

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VDV hit a Ukrainian APC with a Lancet in the Bakhmut area.

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Ukrainian D-20 howitzer hit by Lancet in Svatovo Kremennaya front.

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Ukrainian SPG hit by Lancet in the Kupyan front.

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CV-90 and YPR-765 hit by Lancets courtesy of the VDV.

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Ukrainian Grad taken out by Lancet from obtf Kaskad.

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M109 taken out by Lancet.

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CV-90 disabled in the Bakhmut direction.

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M777 hit by Lancet then finished off by Giatsint in the Krasno-Limansky front.

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DPR created MLRS fires thermobaric rockets in Donetsk region. Yes it's created by the DPR.

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Ukrainian T-72M1 drowns on the river. Self inflicted. Observed with bewilderment by obtf Kaskad.

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Kozak-2 attacked by FPV drone courtesy of obtf Kaskad.

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Two Ukrainian BMP knocked out in the Rabotino area.

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