The War in the Ukraine

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Instead of just working existing factories by 3 shifts, are they also opening new factories or re-opening old soviet factories? Cause Soviets had the ability to produce 5000+ tanks per year. Right now Russia probably can produce a few hundred per year. That will not be enough if Western production ramps up.

Russians are also modernizing several hundred more each year. Both new builds and modernized ones are scaling up as per Putin decree.

Leopard tank rate production is around 50 new builds each year and about 60 to 70 modernizations each year. Currently Germany produces about two 2A7s a month.

In recent years, the US only builds around 20 to 60 tanks per year.

It would take years to scale these up, and we know the West has been under some sort of de-industrialization. Not a lot of people want to work these robotic jobs when they can be making videos on Tiktok. Economic experts talk about such things like the "Post Industrial Age" and the "Service Industry." Plus its not Russia that's having bank runs or having protests at its capital.

Plus the cost of materials have gone up because the West sanctioned Russia, which is also an important source of various metals. Lets not forget that Russia is an important source for all things you need to make ammunition, such as nitrates. So the West cannot build the same things as the same invoice prices as years ago. Along with all the reckless money printing in the West, the invoice cost for new builds and ammunition would be considerably higher than before.

Russia has been gradually scaling up production over these past years because they have been getting ready to fight this conflict. They are aware of this for years given the clear hostility of the West towards them are telegraphed. If they need machine tools and the likes of it, these can be sourced from China.

Some additional unrelated info.

Wagner has swept through the industrial district and reports of fighting in the central part of Bakhmut.

 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
This is a heavily pro-Russian site, so take it with a truckload of salt...
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Berdichevsky: Avdiivka is destined for the fate of Mariupol​

March 27, 2023
...
Residents of Avdiivka share with the Russian Armed Forces data on the location of equipment and manpower of the enemy. However, it is obvious that the Armed Forces of Ukraine are not going to leave their positions just like that, and the city is waiting for the fate of Mariupol. Donetsk deputy Vladislav Berdichevsky told about this to the VZGLYAD newspaper. Earlier it became known that Kyiv began the evacuation of utilities from Avdiivka.

“Now in Avdiivka, our forces are actively destroying fortified areas built by the enemy. Heavy flamethrower systems of volley fire "TOS-1A Solntsepyok" are working. The Armed Forces of Ukraine, apparently, are not going to leave the city. So I do not rule out that the fate of Mariupol is destined for the settlement”, says Vladislav Berdichevsky, deputy of the People’s Council of the DPR.

“Residents who still remain in Avdiivka are pro-Russian. They regularly share with us data on the movement of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, as well as on the concentration of enemy manpower. In this regard, the Ukrainian authorities turn off mobile communications in the city and begin to withdraw utilities from there”, the interlocutor emphasizes.

“Ukraine realizes that the settlement is no longer under its control. The logic of President Zelensky is simple - if the territory soon comes under the control of Russia, why do anything there. At the same time, I note that Artemivsk and Avdeevka are now almost the hottest spots in the Donetsk direction”, Berdichevsky concluded.

Earlier it became known that the Ukrainian authorities began the evacuation of utilities from Avdiivka. This was announced by the Ukrainian mayor Vitaliy Barabash. He also recommended that the remaining residents leave the city as soon as possible. At the same time, the politician warned the population about plans to turn off mobile communications in the village.

Recall, adviser to the acting head of the DPR, Yan Gagin , said that near Avdiivka, work is underway based on the experience of Soledar and Artemovsk - to cut the transport arteries through which the enemy can supply his group in the city. In his opinion, the Armed Forces of Ukraine risk getting into the operational environment.

On Friday, the acting head of the DPR, Denis Pushilin, said that Russian units had achieved a number of successes in the Avdiivka direction. At the moment, Russian troops are advancing towards the settlement from different directions. At the same time, he noted that the enemy "continues to resist and transfer reserves."
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
Is time on Ukraine's side or on Russia's side?

I keep hearing from various commentators that Russia's plan is to exhaust the west and ukraine. That thinking follows the slow pace Russia has taken in pursuing this war. But I also keep hearing that as more time goes on, Western industrial complex will ramp up production of weapons and Ukraine will also train more troops, thus Russia will be defeated.

So, if time is not on Russia's side in terms of production, then Russia is simply fighting a doomed battle until the west and Ukraine produces enough troops and weapons to defeat it.

What about Russian industrial complex. On paper they should also have a formidable defense industrial complex from the soviet days. Are they ramping up production of Tanks, planes, artillery pieces and so on to be able sustain and even expand their force numbers?
I disagree. This war does not exist in vacuum. The entire West can outproduce Russia but they will not. A much larger portion of their budget will be dedicated toward China, meaning things like advanced airforce and navy. Those will not be helpful toward Ukraine unless they are donating F-35 and destroyers to Ukraine. As such they are currently overstretched. The inflation is rising rapidly worse than Russia and China is still outgrowing them. The economic battle is decisively in Russia's favor.

Russia's weakness is the political side of battle. The war never meant to be this long. Russia cannot gather conscription wuthout formal declaration of war. As such manpower is at a premium. This is something Ukraine has decisive advantage at. Even with less population they still outnumber Russian troops. As such Russia will never run out of equipment before Ukraine. They will sooner run out of political will or manpower. As such the optimal strategy for Ukraine is to conserve equipment, bleed Russian manpower, but their own soldiers can afford to take risk die.
 

Stierlitz

Junior Member
Registered Member
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View attachment 109240
Is this the first time western media reporting KIA figure of this magnitude for AFU?
Out of curiousity I looked up this article to see if it has been edited and sure enough now it writes "And upwards of 100,000 Ukrainian forces have been killed or wounded in the year-long war".Ukrainians probably threw another hissy fit and Politico was forced to help them save face (just like after VDL's speech).
 

Right_People

Junior Member
Registered Member
Fascinating.

Have your Donbas folks always been overwhelmingly anti-Russian? In your view, does it seem like Russia lost a huge amount of support in Ukraine between 2014 and 2022? For example in 2014, there was a pretty big openly pro-Russian grouping in Kharkov. You had lots of photos of people occupying government buildings while waving Russian flags back in the day. However, in 2022, when the Russians entered Kharkov in the first days of the war, almost no one turned up to support them. We know the Russians do still have substantial support in Donbas, but it doesn't seem like as much as it was back in 2014. And the resistance, of course, is much greater. What, in your view, is the reason for this?
Fear.
I have friends on both armies,my AFU friends are not completely opposed to Russia tbh, they tell me there is many people that either likes Russia or doesnt mind being ruled by russian olygarchy over ukranian one. Ukranians also learned that from 2014, dont allow civilians to express themselves but once u get outside the bigger cities, it is easier to see what people actually think or if they are just pretending. But most people, young people, dont really give a shit at all, and that is why they left as much as they could. I mean after the first row of negotiations ukranians killed one of their own main politicians there, I think he was a minister.
Smart people didnt say much when the Gestapo was in their city 80 years ago, you can always try to be hero, but cementeries are full of brave heroes ...

Anyways, there is many videos of AFU soldiers complaining that they are not welcomed by civilians in the East and parts of the South of the country.
 

baykalov

Senior Member
Registered Member
Anyways, there is many videos of AFU soldiers complaining that they are not welcomed by civilians in the East and parts of the South of the country.

Here's what two Azov fighters said, the first fighter surrendered at Azovstal, was taken prisoner and then exchanged.

"In a candid interview Azov fighter (call name Chemist) said that 60% of Mariupol residents have always been pro Russian, 20% were pro peace & didn't care who is in charge (Moscow or Kiev) and only 20% were pro Ukraine. He also said that Donetsk & Lugansk are largely pro Russia."

"Other Ukranian Azovstal "defender" being interviewed by a French news network says that "70% of Mariupol residents are pro Russia".. French news anchors in shock."
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
These kinds of subtleties vanish in the face of an act as provocative as a foreign power annexing territory a country considers its own. If Ukrainians considered Crimea theirs in 2014, there would be no handwringing about the supposed illegality of overthrowing Yanukovych. It would be seen as a grotesque Russian violation of Ukrainian sovereignty no matter the circumstances that brought it about.

I find it much more likely that the Ukrainian government in 2014 recognized that it was in no shape to fight Russia and could not count on Western support. Do you have any data that indicates Ukrainians felt as you describe in 2014?

You completely misunderstand the nature of the conflict and how the perception of it changed over time. I'm assuming you probably started paying attention to it only after Russia invaded in 2022 so everything that you know about the conflict comes with hindsight forcibly included in every commentary on the war. Everything is obvious now but nothing was obvious as the events unfolded.

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Ukraine was engulfed by a political conflict between pro-western and pro-Russian parties effectively representing two competitors in energy markets (US/UK and Russia) which began in 2004 when Yanukovych attempted to steal the presidential election and Yushchenko almost died from poisoning. That was highly controversial event in which both sides began to accuse each other of foreign interference. Yanukovych then won the election in 2010 against less popular Tymoshenko but the disastrous mishandling of Maidan protests in winter of 2013-2014 led to his removal from power. He was removed on 22nd of February.

Before that pro-Russian protests have taken place in Simferpol and Sevastopol in response to the fighting in Kiyv. Russian military operation began in the evening of 26th February but Russian troops were unmarked and assisted openly by SBU and Ministry of Internal Affairs personnel in Crimea which remained loyal to Yanukovych. New government in Kiyv was only approved on the 27th and the process of purging of the ministries took time.

The takeover of Crimea resembled an armed uprising rather than overt Russian military intervention. It took place exactly at the time of extreme volatility in Kiyv as new and unstable government acting under 2012 election results and thus without genuine majority attempted to wrestle control out of the hands of Yanukovych's people. Russian "green men" worked hand-in-hand with pro-Yanukovych forces.

Let's not forget that what took place in Kiyv was a regular battle between government and opposition which ended in a peace agreement. It was a civil war per definition.

A crucial factor was also the legal status of Crimea as an Autonomous Republic - the only administrative region of Republic of Ukraine with legitimate political sovereignty. The problem was the manner in which those rights were exercised. And between that, the physical control over Crimea by pro-Yanukovych/pro-Russian militants and successful blockade of Ukrainian military forces on the peninsula it was simply too much for an unstable government in Kiyv that struggled to prevent instability, protests and attempt to instigate secession over the entirety of the east. They had to choose between losing Crimea or losing half of the country. They chose correctly.

Let's also not forget that the government would not function without the support of Svoboda and other moderate nationalists many of whom might have made the calculation that losing the pro-Russian parts of the country will shift the balance of power in their favour. It's quite obvious that Svoboda was doing everything it could to deepen the conflict rather than seek compromise because they stood to gain most from further instability. The mess around language laws is great example of that. Some pushed, some resisted.

Russian military intervention took place at the same time as a war of secession was happening in south and east of Ukraine and while it was obvious that Russia would provide political support to the pro-Russian factions it wasn't obvious that Russian military was directly involved in the fighting until August when AFU almost managed to neutralise separatist forces only to be pushed back by unmarked Russian combined arms formations.

Until that moment it was almost impossible to tell whether government forces were fighting Russian-speaking pro-Russian Ukrainians, Russians from Ukraine or volunteers from Russia because it was a chaotic and highly irregular conflict fought over by small armed groups on both sides. Because majority of early fighting for the Ukrainian side was done by volunteer formations like Azov or Donbas it was also impossible to tell who the pro-Russian forces were fighting: the government in Kiyv or the anti-Russian volunteers.

It was a complete mess and I remember the confusion very well.

At the time most people interpreted these events as evidence of Russian extreme skill in "hybrid warfare" but I think Russians got extremely lucky. Internal instability in Ukraine was decisive and also ensured the limited scope of economic sanctions. I'm of the opinion that had Russia invaded in 2014 it would have been an even greater disaster than the current invasion. There's an argument to be made here but I'm out of characters.

Very interesting and insightful. Do you think this culture has fundamentally changed over the past eight years? Is the AFU now a professional military (by NATO standards) with a competent NCO staff that can maintain discipline and give it a decisive edge over the Russian military? Is it still the antiquated Soviet institution it was in 2014? Or is it somewhere in between, and if so, where between these extremes would you put it?

That depends on the formation. Special Operations Forces and Air Assault Forces received most training and support and they are most professional but they still are not NATO standard. They are absolutely most motivated and get the best selection of personnel. Ground Forces received less training and they're a somewhat modernized post-Soviet formation. National Guard received some training but their roles are different and Territorial Defense is just a militia. AFU is a conscript force which limited initial potential. NATO forces are professional so there's no direct comparison force-on-force.

There are new units that have been formed during the war and some of them are receiving NATO training and will be equipped with NATO weapons but they will not be the equivalent of experienced professional force. I don't think training and discipline will be an advantage for Ukraine. Morale is definitely on their side, particularly those fighting in those new units. There will be some advantage stemming from the new tactics that were taught but it is difficult to tell how much of that can come together into a coherent whole. We'll have to wait and see.


I'd like to ask you what you think the reasons for Ukraine's relative success have been. If you were to break it down into factors, how much weight would you give to:
1. Direct NATO support through providing arms, ammunition, and intelligence.
2. Reforms and battlefield experience gained through fighting pro-Russian separatists from 2014-2022.
3. Ideological indoctrination and radicalization of the population in general and the military specifically since 2014.
4. Indirect NATO assistance through training over 2014-2022.
5. Russian underestimation of Ukraine and general incompetence.
Feel free to suggest any relevant factors I've missed.

In order of relevance:

5a. Without Russian failures NATO support would be not forthcoming. Washington planned for collapse and insurgency.
5b. Militarily Russia could only achieve success in a limited campaign. Their choice of operation was self-defeating.
1a. NATO material support - both military and non-military, including accepting millions of refugees - is what keeps Ukraine at war. Without it they'd be out of supplies and forced to surrender in late spring/early summer at the latest.
1b. NATO ISR is fundamental to equating the field on a strategic level and the information warfare is waged by NATO for Ukraine.
2. Provided for a trained pool of reservists numbering approx. 0,8 million. Tactical experience helpful but not decisive.
4. Training was not as important as support for purges and institutional reform that ensured that AFU is relatively coherent as a formation. AFU proved resistant to training on higher levels due to cultural and institutional inertia.

Not relevant:

3. There was no indoctrination or radicalisation. The radical element and divisions remained stable since 2012. Russia and Ukraine are not China and Taiwan but Britain and Ireland. You will not understand anything about this conflict until you cut yourself off from Russian narratives about it because Russian narratives are the very reason why Russia committed all the errors.

How do you see the war shaping up over the spring?

I don't have enough information to make any prediction. I developed a scenario for how I would conduct a push toward Crimea but it's a theoretical exercise. It is viable on paper, it may not be viable in reality at all because the data necessary is kept secret.
 
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Right_People

Junior Member
Registered Member
Here's what two Azov fighters said, the first fighter surrendered at Azovstal, was taken prisoner and then exchanged.

"In a candid interview Azov fighter (call name Chemist) said that 60% of Mariupol residents have always been pro Russian, 20% were pro peace & didn't care who is in charge (Moscow or Kiev) and only 20% were pro Ukraine. He also said that Donetsk & Lugansk are largely pro Russia."

"Other Ukranian Azovstal "defender" being interviewed by a French news network says that "70% of Mariupol residents are pro Russia".. French news anchors in shock."
There was a funny image of Azov parade in Mariupol in 2021 or so.
As you are aware Mariupol was the main Azov base and every year on the national day of Ukraine they make a parade. Out of 500k city, there was maybe 1000 people seeing it, many actually ultras and right wing people from Western Ukraine and family.

It was a yearly thing, so many photos proving what I said, easily to compare with Donetsk city parades.


If I have time I will try to find the aereal image, there was more people parading than people watching XD
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
3. There was no indoctrination or radicalisation. The radical element remained stable since 2012. Russia and Ukraine are not China and Taiwan but Britain and Ireland. You will not understand anything about this conflict until you cut yourself off from Russian narratives about it because Russian narratives are the very reason why Russia committed all the errors.
This comparison is even more wrong than the one you're trying to defeat ad absurdum.
Russian narratives, while indeed broken and being managed by surprisingly clueless people - have good basis at least in public narrative, which is shared enough(even if from the opposite sides). Zero legal basis, ofc, but that's Moscow ripping that it had sawn decades ago.
Moreover, the exact problem for the Russian side - now - is that same that happened in eastern Ukraine is technically quite repeatable in much of Russia.
 

Right_People

Junior Member
Registered Member
That depends on the formation. Special Operations Forces and Air Assault Forces received most training and support and they are most professional but they still are not NATO standard. They are absolutely most motivated and get the best selection of personnel. Ground Forces received less training and they're a somewhat modernized post-Soviet formation. National Guard received some training but their roles are different and Territorial Defense is just a militia. AFU is a conscript force which limited initial potential. NATO forces are professional so there's no direct comparison force-on-force.
Really wrong there, all volunteer units where incorporated into National Guard under Interior Ministery. This are not only the most motivated (Azov or Aidar for example) but among the best equipped and trained, so being described as a militia is plain wrong, also Azov was already changing into a Regiment just before the war, that is why transition from brigade to regiment was so easy even after getting destroyed in Mariupol.
And a good chunk of the front line even after 2016 was manned by National Guards, since they were the ones that really wanted to be there for political reasons.
 
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