The War in the Ukraine

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
People understandably see this from an operational/tactical viewpoint where people calculate where it makes sense to retreat or stay and fight till the end for each city/village/settlement.

However if you see this politically, Ukraine must defend literally every inch of its territory so that when the time comes for negotiations it will only lose the minimum territory that Russia has gained.
So yes, even ignoring a lot of casualties, and given that military victory is impossible for each side now, its in Ukraine's interest to defend as much as possible.

Once you lose land in an official diplomatic treaty, that land is gone forever. If you lose, lets say, some 20000 extra soldiers for defending a territory, that's not a big deal. Every year, babies are born all the time. Of course it will damage its national comprehensive power but given the state it is, that Ukraine is already in the abyss, if it moves a couple of metres more inside I don't think it will care.
Your argument of "life for land" is right if the two sides are in a negotiation phase, every inch count. It would be like the last two years of Korean war (out of totally 3 years) when both sides were fighting for small piece of land along the 38 line while negotiation was ongoing.

However, is the Ukraine conflict in that stage now? The two sides haven't shown the slightest willingness to talk except the words for PR purpose. If it is not in that stage, a heavy loose in Bakhmut will reduce Ukrainian's manpower in future battles elsewhere, they could loose even more land.

I think Zelensky want to force Russia into negotiation by stopping them at Bakhmut so Russia accepts that they have reached their limit and there is nothing more to gain by continuing fighting. However, there is the other possibility that Russia eventually took Bakhmut which not only gives the sense there is more to gain but also actually lead to more Ukraine losses due to the depleted manpower. The difficulty is to judge one's limit both for Ukraine and Russia. So I don't think Zelensky is crazy, but could be proven wrong. I think those historical marvellous military victory are only ingenious when being looked at afterwards, but risky or even crazy at time when it is ongoing.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
It’s so weird how you spin something which is in fact a massive increase in capability of the Ukrainian Air Force as a bad thing. How the hell is increasing your capability to strike targets at range a “fail move”? China has a similar weapon.
Didn't the post give you the reason for "bad thing" already? Quote it again.

" The whole point of these glide bombs is to, well, glide. Which they cannot do if they are dropped from low altitude."

The weapon can not be used in its intended purpose by Ukraine due to its lack of control of the air, unless you have different assessment of the air dominance in eastern Ukraine.
 

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
no, avdiivka is very heavily fortified as it has been a frontline town for years.
It's not a frontal attack from Donetsk city that will endanger Avdeevka, it's getting pincered from the back and have the roads that supply it cut off - something that is indeed similar to Bakhmut and Russians are slowly building up to. There are 2 roads that supply the city and both are not far from Russian lines, particularly the one up north which Russians have been successfully pushing towards lately.

Avdeevka is also receiving a disproportionate amount of air strike from VKS for whatever reason. Everyday we see new footage of FAB-500 going off in this area, there was even this dud recently:
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Aren’t you contradicting yourself?

Bakhmut gives Russia an advantageous position. It doesn't give such position to Ukraine. Denyning an advantage to the enemy is not equal to having an advantage because what is advantageous to one is not necessarily advantageous to the other.

Capturing Vuhledar, Bakhmut, Jampil/Siversk and Kupyansk allows Russia to establish a continuous sustainable frontline. Therefore Russia will not stop until they capture these positions because it is the last element of consolidating control over captured territory. That puts Ukraine in a position where they will be forced to keep fighting as long as they hold those positions. So the only thing that can be achieved in Bakhmut is attrition of Russian manpower and ammunition.

Success there is defined by ratios of attrition. The threshold ratios are 1:4 in terms of manpower and whatever is the ratio for unsustainable munitions use by Russia. Unless Ukraine can maintain these ratios it will exhaust itself faster than Russia will and will lose the war even if it wins the battle for Bakhmut. But how does Ukraine sustain the ratios? With external help which is conditional.

A more advantageous strategy for Ukraine would be to simultaneously withdraw from those positions and tentatively allow Russia to capture their objective and strike at Melitopol, threaten the southern front and using seaborne flank along Kinburn peninsula establish two vectors of attack toward Crimea.

Crimea is the decisive point of the war and the main strategic objective. If Ukrainian forces reach border with Crimea Russia will have to negotiate because even if they capture all of Ukraine east of Dnipro but lose Crimea it's a strategic defeat. This is why to achieve this Ukraine should sacrifice territory in eastern Ukraine which is either impossible to recapture without prior Russian withdrawal like pre-invasion DPR/LPR or irrelevant like northern Luhansk oblast.

The figures indicate pre-invasion population - total of 261k outside of LPR.

Luhansk_Oblast_Map.jpg

This area also doesn't have any identified natural resources of note. It is the least valuable part of Ukraine and the most pro-Russian region other than Crimea and DPR/LPR. It's also ruined by war. Rational choice is to let Russia have it and strike where the strike will matter.

The push for Crimea is easy. What is hard is pushing for Crimea while simultaneously pushing along the rest of the front. What is even harder probably is explaining how you give up a lot to capture a little, especially after all that talk about genocide etc but that's politics.

Strategically as soon as the western bank of Dnipro was evacuated in November Ukraine should have struck at Tokmak even at the cost of taking high casualties. The consequence of delay is this distribution of defensive positions - from 23 Jan 2023:


2023-01-23 Russian Fortifications.jpg

Tokmak breaks up the railway line from Crimea and opens the M-14 near Melitopol (the road to Berdyansk and Mariupol) to GMLRS effectively disrupting the logistics for majority of the front between Zaporozhia and Donetsk and forcing Russia to disperse the supply lines across the very poor local road network.

Once Tokmak is captured it opens the entire flank toward Energodar and allows to push toward Melitopol. That would make Tokmak into a similar target that Bakhmut is currently - a target that Russia must recapture to consolidate its defensive lines. But Tokmak would be easier to defend than Bakhmut because while Ukraine retains depth Russian forces have very little of it.

Tokmak.jpg

red - current frontline
orange - speculative minimum-gain frontline after capturing Tokmak
magenta - approximate max range for GMRLS from "safe" positions.

Southern front also would benefit from better air defenses compared to eastern front while Russia would have to keep their SAMs out of range.

The capture of that area also explains Russian position.

Loss of Melitopol by day 2 of the invasion (the fighting in the city lasted until 1 Mar but the roads around it were taken by 27 Feb) is the war's biggest blunder followed by loss of Nova Kakhovka on day 1. Russian forces couldn't break through the defensive lines on the DPR boundary and Mariupol was only surrounded when it was attacked from the west by forces coming from Melitopol and Berdyansk (taken 27 Feb).

South frot collapse.jpg

Ukraine not only had not reinforced the border with Crimea to prevent fast crossing by land but had no units stationed in Melitopol. Instead a battalion was stationed in Novoalekseyivka near border as well as in Skladovsk and near Nova Kakhovka to the west. Those units were outmaneuvered and dispersed in the first hours and then Russian forces simply overrun the area through sheer initiative. With proper defense they would have never been able to pass Nova Kakhovka, Kherson and Melitopol without heavy fighting over many days. Compare with advances through DPR/LPR boundary. The collapse of southern front is entirely on Poroshenko's and Zelensky's military genius.

But what that means is that as you look at the map you miss the fact that the only reason why Russia was able to capture that area was because there was no meaningful resistance. Compare with 1st Tank Army advance to Izyum which took ~2 weeks. Ukraine had to defend everywhere else including west of Mikolaiyv and consequently the frontline stabilized around 20 Mar where it is today and then it took a while before forces were amassed on both sides.

Melitopol is the most vulnerable direction after west Dnipro is cleared and it should be prioritized even without Crimea's importance for the war.

Obviously I can be missing important data on Bakhmut or it may be a shaping operation to draw away Russian forces from another direction but other than that it's a strategic error. Hopefully this answers your question.

to retrofit the AMRAAM on the MiG-29 seems like a waste of time.

It's not. Ukraine has only SARH. Either evade or keep target. With ARH you can do both.

Tracking range of N019 is 60km vs. 3m2 RCS. Su-27/30/34/25 have 10m2+ RCS. Only Su-35 had it reduced. Being able to target bombers and evade changes a lot.

R-77 doesn't give extra range for safety so R-37 is needed but Su-35 and MiG-31 can't fly indefinitely so AMRAAM equates the field a lot.

The only change is a translator to feed data from radar to missile and back and some mechanical mods. It's not hard. Just unprofitable. Should have been done months ago. See above for "strategic errors".
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
No escaping this Lancet as it strikes a hidden SPG.


DPR's Obtf Kaskad taking prisoners in Ugledar.


Muddy road of retreat from Bakhmut is a literal road of drones and death.


Not sure why but this Ukrainian BMP is simply going around blowing up people's homes or what's left of them.

 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
It's not. Ukraine has only SARH. Either evade or keep target. With ARH you can do both.

Tracking range of N019 is 60km vs. 3m2 RCS. Su-27/30/34/25 have 10m2+ RCS. Only Su-35 had it reduced. Being able to target bombers and evade changes a lot.

R-77 doesn't give extra range for safety so R-37 is needed but Su-35 and MiG-31 can't fly indefinitely so AMRAAM equates the field a lot.

The only change is a translator to feed data from radar to missile and back and some mechanical mods. It's not hard. Just unprofitable. Should have been done months ago. See above for "strategic errors".

Nope, it requires modification on the radar itself. For the N001 to adopt firing the R-77, it had a new fire control computer and data channel. There was also extensive hardware and software mods for the APG-66 and APG-63 to fire the AMRAAM. You cannot just fire the ARH missile using the STT mode and this is the only mode that lets the radar fire a BVR missile. Using such a mode means the radar is going to illuminate the target anyway as the STT is also it's SARH mode. ARH missiles are fired from the TWS mode and you have to software modify the radar for that. Good luck finding the source code for this radar and someone who knows how to code 8080 assembly in this day and age (other than Bill Gates himself). You also need a mil std bus on the aircraft and good luck on that as ex Soviet aircraft don't. 60km range is likely on the SD or Search and Detect mode and that does not give a weapons quality track required for the missile or it's going to miss a lot. On TWS the range is going to be shorter and there's no guarantee given how slow the radar processes that the TWS as it exists produces a weapon quality track which is what the STT mode does. The N001 conversion for the R-77 included a 16 bit channel which essentially added a 16 bit 8086 compatible subprocessor to the N001's main bus that's powered by an 8 bit 8080 compatible main processor, resulting in the radar being relabeled N001VE with the E added being as export to the PLAAF.

You're better off just changing the entire radar. That's the same conclusion MiG made long ago.
 

Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
Registered Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
I'm just going to post this link because there are so many and I'm not going to waste my time on it.

Russia attacked Ukraine that night with 7 Tu-22 and 15 Tu-95 bombers simultaneously and including 3 ships in the Black Sea with Kalibr, plus dozens of Geran-2 drones.

Here are the regions that have been reported missile arrivals:
Dnipropetrovsk
Kherson
Vinnytsia
Mykolaiv
Odessa
Chernigov
Zaporizhzhia
Kharkov
Cherkasy
Zhytomyr
Lviv
Kiev
Khmelnitsky
Ivano-Frankovsk
Poltava
Ternopol

At least 15 missile and drone arrivals were recorded in Kharkov, with a power plant on fire.

Geran-2 drone arrivals in Kiev and Dnipropetrovsk have been reported.

The use of Kh-22 is reported massively.

There were 4-5 waves of cruise missiles launched.

Blackouts across Ukraine.

At least 1 missile crossed Moldovan airspace.

The bombing in Ukraine lasted from 00:52 AM (Kiev time) to 04:32 AM (Kiev time).

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
More attack waves are expected.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
Some MiG-29 fighters had upgrades.

For example this is the cockpit of a Polish MiG-29.
MWE38Up.png


And this is a Slovak MiG-29.
3Fii48i.png


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
"In February 2004, RSK MiG signed an agreement to upgrade 12 Slovak Air Force MiG-29s. The upgrade included Rockwell Collins navigation and communications systems and a BAE Systems IFF system. Russian companies supplied the glass cockpit with multifunctional LCD displays and digital processors. Deliveries were completed in 2007.
...
In September 2011, the Poland Ministry of Defence placed a $42.6m contract with Wojskowe Zaklady Lotnicze nr 2 to upgrade its 16 MiG-29s (13 MiG-39A single-seaters and three MiG-29UB-12 two-seaters) aircraft. The scope of work included overhauling avionics such as mission computer, 1553B data bus system and various GPS modules."

Still, I doubt it would be that easy to integrate the AMRAAM even with these systems. For example even the electric signals for the weapon rails are totally different. Let alone having to reprogram the radar.
 
Last edited:

drowingfish

Junior Member
Registered Member
my oh my the battle of bakhmut is turning into something like the Huaihai campaign, where both sides have drastically expanded their mission over time and now it has morphed into a decisive engagement.

the winner here is fundamentally decided by which side has better coordination amongst units and branches. as i see it both sides are pretty junk at this. Ukrainian leaders are bickering at each other at the very top, and now they are rushing an offensive for political reasons. there is almost no way they are prepared to conduct an offensive. Russians on the other hand, have clearly shown that they are willing to throw each other under the bus in order to steal the glory. prigozhin's complaint of ammo shortage makes me wonder which is worse: that russian MoD is deliberately starving wagners of ammo or that there is truly a shortage everywhere...in the end the winner of this battle is going to be the side that sucks less XD
 
Top