The War in the Ukraine

drowingfish

Junior Member
Registered Member
Does anyone have a YT channel/Twitter account that gives real updates on the Bakhmut front other than Weeb Union?
defense politics asia is pretty good, a pro-russian account, but quite objective in his assessments.

at this point though there is really no disagreement between pro-russian and pro-ukrainian accounts that bakhmut is lost to russia. the disagreements now come from how significant this is.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
at this point though there is really no disagreement between pro-russian and pro-ukrainian accounts that bakhmut is lost to russia. the disagreements now come from how significant this is.

There can be no meaningful disagreement on the significance of the loss of Bakhmut. If there is disagreement it's just ignorance. I explained it recently in a post about Vuhledar:


The rationale for capture is taken directly from Soviet and Russian manuals on operational art. There's nothing arbitrary about it.

Whenever an army does something the first thing that you do is check their manuals. Armies fight according to doctrine unless they break it. Only if what happens is not described in the manual can there be a disagreement about the commander's intention or other factors. If anyone argues otherwise that's how you identify someone who needs to be deleted from your sources.

The reason why Ukraine defends Bakhmut is because Russia needs to take the railway link. Therefore Ukraine can predict the place of battle and its tactical character.

War is nothing like computer games and because of that people who draw their understanding from computer games have it all backwards. In war you know less than Jon Snow and the first thing that you fight for is information.

Though not obvious at first reducing uncertainty is the main objective of all war planning. You plan to know what can happen better than your enemy because resources in war are expended every time you move your forces. Every decision has a cost that is irretrievable. This is why you can lose a war despite winning all battles.

When you have a natural objective such as Bakhmut you can plan your defense knowing where the enemy is going to come from and how because you can prepare the battlefield. This way you have the information advantage and your enemy has to deal with higher uncertainty. While you fight the incoming enemy, the enemy has to fight you and the fog of war at the same time.

The danger of choosing a place of battle is always that your enemy can refuse to give battle and exploit your position. That can't be done with main objectives and Bakhmut is one such objective. So as counter-intuitive as it may seem the decision to stay in Bakhmut is not wrong, and it depends on the expenditure of resources from both sides.

Therefore the decision to continue persistent defense rather than withdraw can be explained by Ukraine's perception of advantageous casualty distribution. Otherwise defending forces would have withdrawn to the next defensive position. Below is topo map with black line denoting current Russian position and blue line denoting natural defensive line for AFU after withdrawal.

Bakhmut topo alt.jpg

Losing this position means withdrawal to large urban areas of Slovyansk/Kramatorsk/other i.e. repeat of Severodonetsk/Lysychansk in a larger setting.

Reznikov recently said that the ratio of Ukrainian to Russian losses is 1:7 which doesn't say much considering he's not an objective source. But the fact that Ukraine persists means that the ratio must be at approx. 1:3,5 (the demographic ratio for conscripts) or higher otherwise it wouldn't make sense to continue defending the city for so long. As long as Russia is losing manpower at a higher rate than the demographic ratio it is an effective strategy because casualty rates indicate the amount of resources that you have to commit for success. The higher the casualty rate the higher the use of manpower, the higher the need for rotation, the higher the rate of morale deterioration force-wide etc. Meat-grinders unfortunately have a mathematical dimension that signals "solution" which is why they are used in war planning. People think that it's because commanders are stupid but that's not it. It's about sunken cost and attrition of support networks, and not attrition of fighting force.

This is also why I would conclude (although this is my subjective assessment and without high confidence) that Russia has already started their counter-offensive but it responsibly chose to conduct it as a "crawling offensive". That is because Ukrainian defenses are prepared and any concentrated Russian push that would attempt a more traditional offensive maneuver would be annihilated in the same manner as the attempts near Vuhledar. Russia can't take losses any more than Ukraine can. There's a difference of threshold for both but as soon as Russia is on the offensive it has mathematics working against it. For traditional assault you need at least 2,5:1 ratio of forces and during assault attacking force will take greater casualties unless they can suppress the defenders - which Russia can't despite greater volume of fires and air support (why is another question). Therefore in any major offensive operation against prepared defenses Russia would take much higher casualties than the proportional rate of casualties for Ukraine would be.

To successfully perform a major offensive Russia would have to open a completely new front to draw away enemy strength and supplies and so far it seems that they are out of means to do so. This is why it's pushing at Vuhledar, Bakhmut and Kupyansk and will likely attempt to encircle and capture Siversk. Once a continuous frontline is established the "crawling offensive" will gain some flexibility which may free up resources for more decisive pushes.

Or not. It's difficult to tell.

What is preventing Russia from building a few 100kms of railroads? Why is that so difficult?

It isn't. That's the whole point.

But to build that 100-200km rail track Russian authorities would have to first accept that it is needed in a war against Ukraine which implies that "Russia not stronk". If you recall the clip where Putin was scolding SVR chief Naryshkin you can see what type of mentality was in charge and what type of personality was dominant in the decision-making circles in Moscow.

People capable of accepting the possibility that this track was necessary because otherwise it would be a weakness would not approve the current invasion because it contained multiple such flaws. People who approved the invasion were psychologically incapable of accepting that reality. To them one minor flaw didn't even register.

Also:

On operational level the entire invasion suffers from Russia's inability to decouple from railways as logistical support system. Every vector of attack that wasn't supported by existing railways collapsed by April. Russians couldn't capture Mikolaiyv, Kharkiv, Sumy and Chernihiv which are all important railway hubs located in cities. The supply lines along the roads were attacked because it was improvised logistics. As soon as supplies ran out the entire front folded.

Map on 31 March 2022:
day_36_fullmap_1200px.jpg

As for Kiyv - these are Russian losses from WarSpotting:
map of RU losses.jpg

This sums to three motor rifle brigades worth of destroyed equipment and most likely another three brigades of evacuated or withdrawn damaged vehicles.

Maps of identified RU llosses west of Dnipro:
RU losses wD.jpg

The units which took part in fighting in the north were (MR - motor rifle, refers to actual TOE, T- tank):
  • 35 Army: 38 MRBg, 64 MRBg, 69 MRBg,
  • 36 Army: 5 TBg, 37 MRBg
  • 41 Army: 35 MRBg, 55 MRBg, 74 MRBg
  • Pacific Fleet: 155 MRBg
  • VDV: 104 Rgt (76Div), 331 Rgt (98Div), 137 Rgt (106Div), 31 Bg
Russian losses approach 1/3 of TOE and withdrawn units would be combat ineffective over the next ~30 days minimum. Close to 600 supply trucks were destroyed.

We can speculate if truck-based logistics or additional rail connections would result in better performance but it would still be just one problem of many.

Or simply IFF system failure.

IFF is necessary for identification at distance in contested airspace. Not for when your side has air supermacy and a single aircraft is flying nearby.

In this situation the commander should have used judgment. Ideally the station would have been monitoring the situation continuously and remained in contact with command so they would know that a Russian aircraft was in the area. Therefore if it's not extreme incompetence of the SAM crew then it's even more extreme systemic incompetence within Russian air defense.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I talked about the relevance of railway supplies when this war started. But you seem to be taking all sorts of wrong conclusions.

One is that you seem to think, for whatever reason, that Russia has seven times more troop losses than Ukraine when Russia has air superiority across the whole front, and they have superiority in artillery barrels and shells. In fact all reports I have read state the exact opposite with some even claiming Ukraine has up to ten times more troop losses than Russia. i.e. Russia has lost 20k troops on the whole conflict thus far and Ukraine 200k.

The need to rely on railways has nothing to do with some kind of inferiority of Russian supply, trucks, or whatever. It is just the nature of the crappy transport infrastructure in Ukraine. You have either dirt roads or railways. The roads are not good enough to guarantee the supply, especially in the mud seasons, so you need to resort to railroads. Any trucks you use would get bogged down in impassable mud in mud season. This was also true back in WW2 where most conflicts in the Eastern Front were in fact fought along the railway routes.

The idea you are pushing that the Russians cannot build infrastructure if required is, in my opinion, uninformed on the face of it. Russia is one of the few countries which even has Railway Troops as part of their force structure. One good practical example of how quickly the Russians can build infrastructure is how quickly the Russians built the Crimean Bridge without foreign assistance, and how quickly they repaired it after the bomb attack on it. Another example is how quickly the Russians connected Crimea back to the rest of the rail system in Southern Ukraine. Today you have operational rail links between Crimea and Melitopol for example. Crimea is connected to Russia not only via the Crimean bridge but also through Southern Ukraine.

Another issue you seem to ignore is that the problem of being limited to rail transport to sustain a major campaign is not restrained to Russia, but also to Ukraine. That is one of the reasons why Ukraine has been so stubbornly defending Bakhmut in the first place. Later after they lost several of the rail heads into and out of the city the major issue seems to be sheer stubbornness and Zelensky's moronic idea that he cannot concede any terrain to Russia whatsoever in the war.
 
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drowingfish

Junior Member
Registered Member
There can be no meaningful disagreement on the significance of the loss of Bakhmut. If there is disagreement it's just ignorance. I explained it recently in a post about Vuhledar:


The rationale for capture is taken directly from Soviet and Russian manuals on operational art. There's nothing arbitrary about it.

Whenever an army does something the first thing that you do is check their manuals. Armies fight according to doctrine unless they break it. Only if what happens is not described in the manual can there be a disagreement about the commander's intention or other factors. If anyone argues otherwise that's how you identify someone who needs to be deleted from your sources.

The reason why Ukraine defends Bakhmut is because Russia needs to take the railway link. Therefore Ukraine can predict the place of battle and its tactical character.

War is nothing like computer games and because of that people who draw their understanding from computer games have it all backwards. In war you know less than Jon Snow and the first thing that you fight for is information.

Though not obvious at first reducing uncertainty is the main objective of all war planning. You plan to know what can happen better than your enemy because resources in war are expended every time you move your forces. Every decision has a cost that is irretrievable. This is why you can lose a war despite winning all battles.

When you have a natural objective such as Bakhmut you can plan your defense knowing where the enemy is going to come from and how because you can prepare the battlefield. This way you have the information advantage and your enemy has to deal with higher uncertainty. While you fight the incoming enemy, the enemy has to fight you and the fog of war at the same time.

The danger of choosing a place of battle is always that your enemy can refuse to give battle and exploit your position. That can't be done with main objectives and Bakhmut is one such objective. So as counter-intuitive as it may seem the decision to stay in Bakhmut is not wrong, and it depends on the expenditure of resources from both sides.

Therefore the decision to continue persistent defense rather than withdraw can be explained by Ukraine's perception of advantageous casualty distribution. Otherwise defending forces would have withdrawn to the next defensive position. Below is topo map with black line denoting current Russian position and blue line denoting natural defensive line for AFU after withdrawal.

View attachment 108472

Losing this position means withdrawal to large urban areas of Slovyansk/Kramatorsk/other i.e. repeat of Severodonetsk/Lysychansk in a larger setting.

Reznikov recently said that the ratio of Ukrainian to Russian losses is 1:7 which doesn't say much considering he's not an objective source. But the fact that Ukraine persists means that the ratio must be at approx. 1:3,5 (the demographic ratio for conscripts) or higher otherwise it wouldn't make sense to continue defending the city for so long. As long as Russia is losing manpower at a higher rate than the demographic ratio it is an effective strategy because casualty rates indicate the amount of resources that you have to commit for success. The higher the casualty rate the higher the use of manpower, the higher the need for rotation, the higher the rate of morale deterioration force-wide etc. Meat-grinders unfortunately have a mathematical dimension that signals "solution" which is why they are used in war planning. People think that it's because commanders are stupid but that's not it. It's about sunken cost and attrition of support networks, and not attrition of fighting force.

This is also why I would conclude (although this is my subjective assessment and without high confidence) that Russia has already started their counter-offensive but it responsibly chose to conduct it as a "crawling offensive". That is because Ukrainian defenses are prepared and any concentrated Russian push that would attempt a more traditional offensive maneuver would be annihilated in the same manner as the attempts near Vuhledar. Russia can't take losses any more than Ukraine can. There's a difference of threshold for both but as soon as Russia is on the offensive it has mathematics working against it. For traditional assault you need at least 2,5:1 ratio of forces and during assault attacking force will take greater casualties unless they can suppress the defenders - which Russia can't despite greater volume of fires and air support (why is another question). Therefore in any major offensive operation against prepared defenses Russia would take much higher casualties than the proportional rate of casualties for Ukraine would be.

To successfully perform a major offensive Russia would have to open a completely new front to draw away enemy strength and supplies and so far it seems that they are out of means to do so. This is why it's pushing at Vuhledar, Bakhmut and Kupyansk and will likely attempt to encircle and capture Siversk. Once a continuous frontline is established the "crawling offensive" will gain some flexibility which may free up resources for more decisive pushes.

Or not. It's difficult to tell.



It isn't. That's the whole point.

But to build that 100-200km rail track Russian authorities would have to first accept that it is needed in a war against Ukraine which implies that "Russia not stronk". If you recall the clip where Putin was scolding SVR chief Naryshkin you can see what type of mentality was in charge and what type of personality was dominant in the decision-making circles in Moscow.

People capable of accepting the possibility that this track was necessary because otherwise it would be a weakness would not approve the current invasion because it contained multiple such flaws. People who approved the invasion were psychologically incapable of accepting that reality. To them one minor flaw didn't even register.

Also:

On operational level the entire invasion suffers from Russia's inability to decouple from railways as logistical support system. Every vector of attack that wasn't supported by existing railways collapsed by April. Russians couldn't capture Mikolaiyv, Kharkiv, Sumy and Chernihiv which are all important railway hubs located in cities. The supply lines along the roads were attacked because it was improvised logistics. As soon as supplies ran out the entire front folded.

Map on 31 March 2022:
View attachment 108480

As for Kiyv - these are Russian losses from WarSpotting:
View attachment 108481

This sums to three motor rifle brigades worth of destroyed equipment and most likely another three brigades of evacuated or withdrawn damaged vehicles.

Maps of identified RU llosses west of Dnipro:
View attachment 108482

The units which took part in fighting in the north were (MR - motor rifle, refers to actual TOE, T- tank):
  • 35 Army: 38 MRBg, 64 MRBg, 69 MRBg,
  • 36 Army: 5 TBg, 37 MRBg
  • 41 Army: 35 MRBg, 55 MRBg, 74 MRBg
  • Pacific Fleet: 155 MRBg
  • VDV: 104 Rgt (76Div), 331 Rgt (98Div), 137 Rgt (106Div), 31 Bg
Russian losses approach 1/3 of TOE and withdrawn units would be combat ineffective over the next ~30 days minimum. Close to 600 supply trucks were destroyed.

We can speculate if truck-based logistics or additional rail connections would result in better performance but it would still be just one problem of many.



IFF is necessary for identification at distance in contested airspace. Not for when your side has air supermacy and a single aircraft is flying nearby.

In this situation the commander should have used judgment. Ideally the station would have been monitoring the situation continuously and remained in contact with command so they would know that a Russian aircraft was in the area. Therefore if it's not extreme incompetence of the SAM crew then it's even more extreme systemic incompetence within Russian air defense.
lol you think russia makes decision on whether or not to build railways based on how it looks on twitter?
 

Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
Reznikov recently said that the ratio of Ukrainian to Russian losses is 1:7 which doesn't say much considering he's not an objective source. But the fact that Ukraine persists means that the ratio must be at approx. 1:3,5 (the demographic ratio for conscripts) or higher otherwise it wouldn't make sense to continue defending the city for so long. As long as Russia is losing manpower at a higher rate than the demographic ratio it is an effective strategy because casualty rates indicate the amount of resources that you have to commit for success. The higher the casualty rate the higher the use of manpower, the higher the need for rotation, the higher the rate of morale deterioration force-wide etc. Meat-grinders unfortunately have a mathematical dimension that signals "solution" which is why they are used in war planning. People think that it's because commanders are stupid but that's not it. It's about sunken cost and attrition of support networks, and not attrition of fighting force.
I really don't think we can conclude that the ratio might be 1:3,5, or that all decisions made by the Ukrainian military are fully rational (likewise, they are also not all fully irrational).

Not to mention, the way Russia is fighting seems to be mostly very few infrantry at the front probing for positions, then following it up with a lot of firepower.

So while it's hard to say the loss in personel, loss/use of material is likely higher by Russia.
 

Cult Icon

Junior Member
Registered Member
In the history of warfare (past 110 years), explosives, mainly artillery and mortars inflict the bulk of casualties, 60-80% or so. Small arms is always a very small percentage of casualties. The main purpose of infantry is to maneuver and seize ground, not actually deal damage.

The lion's share of damage is done when artillery, missiles, and airstrikes land on top of the enemy, particularly if well directed.

In identical scenarios of positional warfare, the side with 3 times, 5, 9 times firepower superiority will have many multiples advantage in dealing casualties.
 

baykalov

Senior Member
Registered Member
I really don't think we can conclude that the ratio might be 1:3,5, or that all decisions made by the Ukrainian military are fully rational (likewise, they are also not all fully irrational).

From a The Wall Street Journal article a month ago about the situation in Bakhmut:

“So far, the exchange rate of trading our lives for theirs favours the Russians,” one Ukrainian commander told The Wall Street Journal.
“If this goes on like this, we could run out.”

 

Stierlitz

Junior Member
Registered Member
There is no way that the ratio is 1:3.5 in favour of Ukraine lol. It is likely the other way around.

Remember that Von der Leyen accidentally revealed last December that over 100k of Ukrainian soldiers have been killed. That was four months ago ! There's a reason why Ukrainian recruiters are literally snatching men of the street.
 

drowingfish

Junior Member
Registered Member
There is no way that the ratio is 1:3.5 in favour of Ukraine lol. It is likely the other way around.

Remember that Von der Leyen accidentally revealed last December that over 100k of Ukrainian soldiers have been killed. That was four months ago ! There's a reason why Ukrainian recruiters are literally snatching men of the street.
indeed 1:3.5 is purely cope with no rational thinking to back it up.

my best guess is that the ukrainians were losing a lot more men than the russians in the earlier phase of the war, lets say before soledar. at that time ukrainian defenders were under heavy bombardment of the russians, i recall at the time that everyone assessed russia's strategy to be one of attriting ukraine's manpower by fire.

during the assault on soledar, and subsequent attacks north and south of bakhmut i imagine russian casualty might have picked up significantly. on the one hand it was no longer just a positional battle in which guys with bigger guns win, and also that you naturally suffer losses as you commit more infantry. i would also deduce that the shortage of ammo that was being complained about might also come from the fact that shifting frontlines may reduce the effectiveness of arty fire. overall i would imagine up to this point the losses are around 1:1, obviously if russia traps a bunch of defenders in the city or catches them in a rout then the numbers will favor them significantly, but that is not yet a done deal.
 
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