The War in the Ukraine

HighGround

Senior Member
Registered Member
Why would you look at a single battlefield clash with losses of a dozen vehicles as indicative of the whole army's fighting strength when even by your own admission there are other fronts?

Seems like an assessment more founded on hope rather than facts.

I don't really follow what you are implying here.

There have been many incidents of vast losses in single clashes for Ukraine, yet it would be stupid to declare that just because battles where casualties in the thousands were taken, the fighting power and ability to execute plans were broken for Ukraine.

Well no, actually I would. By NATO's own admission, the Balaklia offensive was planned, supplied, and even aided in execution, by U.S. planners rather than Ukraine's. Ukraine's own performance in most other fronts has been poor, characterized by nonsensical assaults that only served to deplete their resources and morale. I've followed this war from the beginning, and there are hundreds of burnt out vehicles in Davydov Brod, West of Izyum, and Kreminna that says plenty about Ukraine's poor op planning.
Are losses in Vuhledar so great that Russia must redeploy troops to keep the line intact? Doesn't seem that way.

Russian commanders are proven theory slackers until one puts a fire under their ass to do something. They're like the Turkish commanders in Syria. Turkey have executed many offensives that let do the loss of dozens of vehicles, which is bad in terms of morale, but they're still hanging on to the operational areas and making advances.

Sure, but I'm not saying the war is lost or that someone is losing. All I'm pointing out, is that Russia's capability in operational planning is eons behind NATO's, U.S.'s, and China's. Granted, we've never seen China in action, but I expect it to be roughly in the vicinity of U.S.'s.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Sure, but I'm not saying the war is lost or that someone is losing. All I'm pointing out, is that Russia's capability in operational planning is eons behind NATO's, U.S.'s, and China's. Granted, we've never seen China in action, but I expect it to be roughly in the vicinity of U.S.'s.

Most people are probably like you thinking about Iraq and Afghanistan, when a more apt comparison would be Vietnam.
 

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
My guess is they will teach the equivalent to a basic greenhorn Tanker (which 8 weeks is probably plenty if you don't worry too much about competency tests).
Thats the thing, can you get away without competency in something that is a bigger target than your usual T-64?.

Base Leopard 2A4's aren't better protected than a T-80U, for example, so chances of getting clapped are high.

Sure, but I'm not saying the war is lost or that someone is losing. All I'm pointing out, is that Russia's capability in operational planning is eons behind NATO's, U.S.'s, and China's. Granted, we've never seen China in action, but I expect it to be roughly in the vicinity of U.S.'s.

For that matter we haven't really seen NATO or the US in a conflict of this size since Vietnam, and that one was a clusterfuck. Desert Storm was a fluke and from then on, it has been mostly COIN without much success either.
 

LawLeadsToPeace

Senior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member
For that matter we haven't really seen NATO or the US in a conflict of this size since Vietnam, and that one was a clusterfuck. Desert Storm was a fluke and from then on, it has been mostly COIN without much success either.
I can’t see how Desert Storm was a fluke. Sure the Iraqi Army was extremely bad. However the US completely understood their enemy on the strategic, operational and tactical levels. Had the US just sent a division or two in with outright unjustified contempt for their enemy and the ROE the Russians had, the US would have been thrashed as well. I can’t say the same for the Russians who screwed up on all levels in the beginning which led to a domino effect. Yes the Russians are currently controlling huge chunks of important Ukrainian territory, and I personally believe the Russians are doing something much more clever on the strategic level which involves politics. However you can’t deny the fact that the SMO is plagued with planning problems on the tactical and operational levels.
 

37thCommando

Just Hatched
Registered Member
I can’t see how Desert Storm was a fluke. Sure the Iraqi Army was extremely bad. However the US completely understood their enemy on the strategic, operational and tactical levels. Had the US just sent a division or two in with outright unjustified contempt for their enemy and the ROE the Russians had, the US would have been thrashed as well. I can’t say the same for the Russians who screwed up on all levels in the beginning which led to a domino effect. Yes the Russians are currently controlling huge chunks of important Ukrainian territory, and I personally believe the Russians are doing something much more clever on the strategic level which involves politics. However you can’t deny the fact that the SMO is plagued with planning problems on the tactical and operational levels.
The Russians have not fought a conventional war in almost a century, the knowledge that they gained from WW2 has probably been lost by now.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
I don't really follow what you are implying here.



Well no, actually I would. By NATO's own admission, the Balaklia offensive was planned, supplied, and even aided in execution, by U.S. planners rather than Ukraine's. Ukraine's own performance in most other fronts has been poor, characterized by nonsensical assaults that only served to deplete their resources and morale. I've followed this war from the beginning, and there are hundreds of burnt out vehicles in Davydov Brod, West of Izyum, and Kreminna that says plenty about Ukraine's poor op planning.


Sure, but I'm not saying the war is lost or that someone is losing. All I'm pointing out, is that Russia's capability in operational planning is eons behind NATO's, U.S.'s, and China's. Granted, we've never seen China in action, but I expect it to be roughly in the vicinity of U.S.'s.
I understand your perspective.

However, personally I'm cautious of falling into a pattern I've seen on both sides, where one lets one's favored side take credit for victories while blaming defeats on other factions. I see this with American nationalists talking about NATO planning and blaming Ukrainian slavic incompetence, Russian nationalists talking about the Russian regular army and blaming the militia, Wagner ppl blaming the mobilized and so on.

If we think about this rationally, if the successful operations of Ukraine are largely due to NATO influence while most failed operations are due to poor Ukrainian planning, then, is it not poor planning on NATO's part to begin with when they could simply forbid Ukraine from doing suicide pushes? Somewhere, someone on the western side okayed these Ukrainian attacks that were not successful and wasted precious manpower and equipment. So no one on that side is free from incompetence, no matter how much blaming is done.

Same applies to Russians that say they lost ground because the ground were staffed with militia. The whole force still bears blame for stationing the militia there to begin with.

The conclusion I have is rather than both sides are doing their "best" and have fully intact planning commands (for their standards) but the conditions are difficult due to large numbers and weapons involved, therefore there will be battlefield defeats for both sides and one should read the overall exchange of territory as well as guessed casualties from mobilization needed to gauge the direction of the war.

Showing videos where dozens of men make a failed retreat, get hit, or some vehicles are stuck, and then attaching a belief to it that it means a certain side is "broken" and "unable to continue" just doesn't make sense to me, whether it is for Ukraine or for Russia.

I can’t see how Desert Storm was a fluke. Sure the Iraqi Army was extremely bad. However the US completely understood their enemy on the strategic, operational and tactical levels. Had the US just sent a division or two in with outright unjustified contempt for their enemy and the ROE the Russians had, the US would have been thrashed as well. I can’t say the same for the Russians who screwed up on all levels in the beginning which led to a domino effect. Yes the Russians are currently controlling huge chunks of important Ukrainian territory, and I personally believe the Russians are doing something much more clever on the strategic level which involves politics. However you can’t deny the fact that the SMO is plagued with planning problems on the tactical and operational levels.

Iraq was a former dependency on US, therefore they had the time to really soak in every aspect of the Iraq forces as well as gain contacts on the inside. There was also a much larger difference in economy/numbers than the current war.

Russia's equivalent to that war would be the Chechnya or Georgia conflicts, which were significantly less well executed, but it did not descend into a near peer battle like the current one, because Ukraine is simply much better armed than all the other states that have been invaded in the near past.
 

LawLeadsToPeace

Senior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member
Iraq was a former dependency on US, therefore they had the time to really soak in every aspect of the Iraq forces as well as gain contacts on the inside. There was also a much larger difference in economy/numbers than the current war.

Russia's equivalent to that war would be the Chechnya or Georgia conflicts, which were significantly less well executed, but it did not descend into a near peer battle like the current one, because Ukraine is simply much better armed than all the other states that have been invaded in the near past.
I won't go too off topic on the Gulf War. I do agree with the points you made about that war. However that only serves to further my point. First of all, that shows that the Russian intelligence community is extremely bad since they had almost 8 years to gather intelligence on a post-Maiden Ukraine and a common cultural and historical vein. Plus, given the fact that the US did have excellent intelligence and planning and still used overwhelming strength, the Russians should have been even more cautious and ruthless in regards to planning and executing the SMO, thus adding more evidence to my claim.
The Russians have not fought a conventional war in almost a century, the knowledge that they gained from WW2 has probably been lost by now.
Not really. The Russian conflicts with Georgia and Chechnya were conventional. They just weren't near-peer.
 
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sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
Sure the Iraq Army was extremely bad. However the US completely understood their enemy on the strategic, operational and tactical levels. Had the US just sent a division or two in with outright contempt and the ROE the Russians had, the US would have been thrashed as well.
Its exactly because the US overstimated the Iraqi Army capacities, training and chain of command that things worked out and even so, had the war dragged on, things would have gotten complicated for the US Army on the logistics end at the very least since by the time the end rolled around, many units were reporting having run out of spare parts and consumables for their vehicles.

There is also the fact Iraqi air defenses, even if extensive, where massively outdated and couple with incompetence, allowed the US free reign over Iraq. Once you take out incompetence, they start to have issues even if the systems are outdated, as show by the air campaing over Yugoslavia in which they couldn't fully wipe out their air defenses and aircraft.

Things would only get more complicated with a more modern air defense. And we can only imagine if it was an scenario were the enemy has the same weapons as you.

However you can’t deny the fact that the SMO is plagued with planning problems on the tactical and operational levels.
No one is denying that but we have 0 clues about the US capacities in a similar scenario. Iraq's own issues might have masked many similar planing problems within NATO.

And Desert Storm was 31 years ago. We have had 20 years of GWOT that has shown massive failures of strategic and tactical planning on the part of the US and NATO overall.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Thats the thing, can you get away without competency in something that is a bigger target than your usual T-64?.

Just to clarify, I think you got the correct idea, but this is more for anyone else who is/was reading.

I think the better word should be "(high) proficiency". I am going to assume the standards would be loosened for such a crash course. Something like hits on target, overlooking small non-critical mistakes, speed of accomplishing tasks, etc.

Whether you can get away with it... If they could get 100+ M1/Leo2/Challenger/Leclerc together quickly (that is within this kind of 8 week period while training is happening, and the number representing something that was initially commonly thrown around in the media before reality set in), it is a pretty formidable force, all of Canada only has ~100 Leo2. If even a fraction of the tank crews end up being decent, at the very least you can repel further incursions even if the proposed counteroffensive doesn't take off smoothly.
 

SolarWarden

Junior Member
Registered Member
Its exactly because the US overstimated the Iraqi Army capacities, training and chain of command that things worked out and even so, had the war dragged on, things would have gotten complicated for the US Army on the logistics end at the very least since by the time the end rolled around, many units were reporting having run out of spare parts and consumables for their vehicles.
The reason US had overwhelming success during ground forces operations was because they spent almost a month destroying Iraqi ground forces through the air which Russia should have done being a supposed air force super power. With the exception of Republican Guards once ground forces moved in Iraqi regular forces were so shell-shocked they gave up quickly.

There's really no excuse the way Russian air force has performed they have the advantages the US did not have in Desert Storm. Russian advantage is the war is right next door which means no tankers needed. No moving of hundreds of fighters and attack aircraft half way around the world with all its support and logistics. Another advantage is Ukraine using Soviet era IADS... now I can likely guess that I wasn't the only one that thought Ukraine Soviet era IADS were not going to last and would be easily jammed since the Russians use and are familiar with these IADS.

The USAF and USN would have no problems taking out a nations IADS that use first generation Patriot batteries and Hawk batteries.

There is also the fact Iraqi air defenses, even if extensive, where massively outdated and couple with incompetence, allowed the US free reign over Iraq. Once you take out incompetence, they start to have issues even if the systems are outdated, as show by the air campaing over Yugoslavia in which they couldn't fully wipe out their air defenses and aircraft.

Things would only get more complicated with a more modern air defense. And we can only imagine if it was an scenario were the enemy has the same weapons as you.

Iraqi/Baghdad IADS were French made. Also research Package Q Strike. That was a strike mission into Baghdad region following the first night of US air strikes. US tried to get cute trying to find out if F-117's the night before did enough damage to Iraqs IADS to launch a massive 72 plane strike in daylight. It didn't end well for the US.
No one is denying that but we have 0 clues about the US capacities in a similar scenario. Iraq's own issues might have masked many similar planing problems within NATO.

And Desert Storm was 31 years ago. We have had 20 years of GWOT that has shown massive failures of strategic and tactical planning on the part of the US and NATO overall.


You need to stop comparing and bringing up US other wars to current Russian failures of this war all you do and shift the conversation making it go off-topic when folks have to respond to your off topic comparisons.

There really is no good excuse for Russia's current bad performance. They are/were considered a conventional super power taking on a nation right next door whose military was nowhere near as modern and competent as Russia's. It is what it is.
 
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