The War in the Ukraine

Stealthflanker

Senior Member
Registered Member
This situation will change fundamentally with delivery of any aircraft capable of using ARH missiles. Ukrainian fighters will be able to launch missiles and begin evasive maneuvers at half range after mid-course update. However when fighting within range of NATO ISR assets they can begin evasive maneuvers immediately because all targeting data can be sent indirectly by NATO AWACS. In the south - where NATO ISR has greatest access an F-16 equipped with a datalink can launch AMRAAM without using its own radar being guided entirely by AWACS.


Are they gonna use NATO airbase too in Romania or Poland ?

What prevent the Russian from targeting something say Uzhorod airbase or any airbases within Ukraine ? Or using their own AEW's to pick the Western fighter from standoff distance and let R-37 harassing them.
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
Well, if this is how NATO see things, I would genuinely feel sad for the Ukrainian people. To be honest, even the people in NATO countries are to be pitied and felt sad for, if what you're saying is indeed how NATO sees things.

The moment NATO thinks that Pro-longing the war with Russia is somehow good for NATO and bad for Russia, NATO would have lost. Prolonging only might have made sense with China, because China is a economic and trade giant which relies on peace to develop and profit. Russia is the OPPOSITE of a trade giant that relies on peace to develop and profit! In fact, peace will only make Russia weak and losing in profit and development, because Russia's import/export economy is terribly structured.
Did you not read the RAND report published the other day? The Americans have given up and they've realised that they can't stop Russia winning, because they've realised a prolonged conflict is going to harm them.

They haven't come to terms that the only option for Ukraine is an unconditional surrender, followed by denazification and demilitarisation, but they will eventually. They'll need to spend a few hundred billion more before they come to that conclusion.
 

HighGround

Senior Member
Registered Member
Did you not read the RAND report published the other day? The Americans have given up and they've realised that they can't stop Russia winning, because they've realised a prolonged conflict is going to harm them.

They haven't come to terms that the only option for Ukraine is an unconditional surrender, followed by denazification and demilitarisation, but they will eventually. They'll need to spend a few hundred billion more before they come to that conclusion.
That's not really what the report said though. It didn't say that Russia was "winning". Indeed, it is doubtful that any American think tank would ever say that out loud.

What the report said, was that protracted conflicted increases the potential for a direct NATO-Russia conflict and potential Russian nuclear use. Therefore, it is in the interest of United States to facilitate an end to the war. As for who's really "winning". It's far too soon to call it for any side. Ukraine has had a lot of success in the last 6 months, and we've been through periods when Russia was making progress, only to be setback by new forms of Western aid or a successful Ukrainian counter attack.

We'll see how the war goes, but just looking at the situation in Ugledar, there is more ugliness to go through before a resolution to the conflict can be found.
 
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anzha

Captain
Registered Member
Setting aside judgment on MarKoz81's post, the analysis of by this thread and the projections produced by those analyses have mostly not met that high bar. In fact, the analyses here have been wildly off. This includes my own.

The Russo-Ukrainian War is almost a year old. A. WHOLE. YEAR. OLD.

Let that sink in.

When it started, I imagined this might last as month or two. I could totally believe an ongoing insurgency after conquest. However, that Russia would not have outright beaten Ukraine in a conventional conflict surprised me. Furthermore, that Russia has been forced to give significant ground and taken very little elsewhere is, well, shocking.

I think from the beginning, whether forum members have been pro Russian or pro Ukrainian, people have tended to swallow propaganda far, far too easily. The members have been looking for information agreeing with what they think rather than what is happening. I think the forum should take a step back and do some introspection. We could be, and I thought in the beginning were, better than NAFO fellahs and tankies.

Regardless of one’s views, they should offer up a counter analysis using other sources. For example, declaring a source such as Bellingcat is sus is fine, but the claim would have been in far stronger a position if it had followed up with data.

My apologies for the rare appearances folks. I have 8 people to take care of now, as some of you who were following in the thread earlier know. Life gets wild with such large changes and...exhausting.
 
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HighGround

Senior Member
Registered Member
On impact of western fighters:

Before Russian retreat from Kherson I made a series of simple graphical analyses for personal use. They are far from being precise and comprehensive and may seem confusing at first but they effectively illustrate the main problems involved in aerial warfare in Ukraine. I suggest you give them some attention.

I focused on the southern front because I concluded that this is the most likely area where western fighters would be used to full extent including air-to-air. All other areas would only see limited use and defensive counter air over western and central Ukraine does not change the current dynamic.

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Russia has only few AEW aircraft and the modernized A-50U had only the processing units replaced and still use old radar antennas which - according to the RUSI report on aerial campaign - Ukraine found relatively easy to disrupt. Almost all of primary situational awareness in aerial combat comes from ground-based sensors like in the Soviet era. While Russia has radars capable of tracking low altitude targets they operate like 48Ya6 Podlet-K1 they are only now being introduced so the main low altitude detection method is using elevation for standard radars.

Below notional radar horizon for S-400 system radars mounted on 40V6 masts - top figure is altitude in km, bottom figure is horizon distance in km.

With radar in Dzhankoy airbase UA aircraft flying at altitudes of 0.5-1 km hide below the horizon all the way to Crimea. HARM has range sufficient for attacking such targets from near the horizon even if they're located further west. All that is required is a dynamic pop-up.

View attachment 106123
The same diagram with added notional maximum ranges for S-400 missiles and approximate ranges of R-27/77 missiles with maximum range, effective range and no escape zone indicated by different shading. The maximum ranges for missiles are theoretical only and are calculated for low altitude targets and optimal (no maneuvering) trajectory. Effective range is approximately 75% of maximum range. The rangs shown is 9M96E (40km), 9M96E2 (120km) and 48N6 (200-250km). The largest circle extending beyond the image is 40N6 which is according to reports not in service in sufficient numbers to be used regularly. Also the range of ukrainian Su-27 is incorrect - it should be slightly greater than MiG's.
View attachment 106124

An important factor for SEAD scenarios is the Kinburn peninsula which can be easily infiltrated by special forces to enable use of drones and other disruption methods. Also after retreat from Kherson a larger portion of the area between Dnepr and Crimea is in range of GMLRS.

Large situational diagrams (3000x2000 pixels) - click to enlarge:

Notional ranges of radars and missiles used by Russian fighters and potential western fighters. The key is in bottom left and top right.
View attachment 106121

Notional ranges of radars and missiles with approximate range of NATO aerial ISR assets.
View attachment 106120
Notional distances from airbases in Southern MD to targets along Kherson-Zaporozhe front.

View attachment 106125

If air defenses in Crimea are made ineffective all of aviation will have to permanently relocate to Kuban (Rostov and Krasondar regions) even in the case of a Ukrainian offensive. It will have significant impact on VKS availability as only Flankers/Fullbacks will have sufficient range to deliver meaningful payload on target. Su-25 will be useless, even with drop tanks. Helicopters will be out of range.

SEAD against Crimean air defenses is not difficult. It only requires patience.

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Currently Ukraine uses SARH missiles which require the target to be continously illuminated with radar until impact or the missile loses contact with target. Illumination as all radar emission is subject to physical limitations and is not guaranteed to ensure a hit. It is however effectively impossible to maintain effective illumination while evading an ARH missile, let alone when the target is performing evasive maneuvers. This is the real reason why Ukraine likely wasn't able to score any kills in air to air although there are claims of shootdowns of attack aircraft which could be plausible but are not confirmed.

This situation will change fundamentally with delivery of any aircraft capable of using ARH missiles. Ukrainian fighters will be able to launch missiles and begin evasive maneuvers at half range after mid-course update. However when fighting within range of NATO ISR assets they can begin evasive maneuvers immediately because all targeting data can be sent indirectly by NATO AWACS. In the south - where NATO ISR has greatest access an F-16 equipped with a datalink can launch AMRAAM without using its own radar being guided entirely by AWACS.

Let's consider F-16 in BVR against VKS aircraft:
  • Su-25 and Su-24 and all helicopters are effectively targets protected only by circumstances and their protection systems.
  • Su-34 and Su-30 are comparable in performance having better radar but worse kinematics and RCS.
  • Su-35 has advantage in radar and energy and can launch R-37M.
  • MiG-31 has decisive advantage in all aspects.
F-16s with AMRAAM will force VKS to fly escort with strike missions and/or maintain CAP in the same manner as they did in autumn last year. Per RUSI report the frontline was divided into eight sectors and each sector had a persistent CAP by Su-35 or MiG-31. This however will result in quick loss of readiness as Russia lacks aerial refueling and spare tanks so the aircraft can only stay in the air for ~2h forcing them to take off and land more than is optimal. MiG-31 is also extremely maintenance-intensive so using it with high frequency will reduce readiness faster than for Su-35. This suggests that VKS will reduce strike missions to whenever they are capable of protecting their bombers with air superiority fighters. This, coupled with the institutional problems that VKS has with planning missions, exchanging information etc will have a measurable impact on effectiveness.

If Ukraine focuses on the southern front - which is logical considering that push toward Crimea is both feasible and provides the only decisive scenario in this conflict - it will cause a massive shift in dynamic of all of the fighting. Russia will be forced to eliminate the threat which will force it to expend valuable munitions and risk their own aircraft in the process.

Delivery of F-16s (or similar) is far from a decisive change but it will be a landslide change in favour of Ukraine.

Finally there's the factor of NATO involvement. As soon as Ukraine flies F-16s and uses AMRAAM it becomes impossible for Russia to separate NATO assets over Black Sea from Ukrainian assets. NATO may begin to fly F-35s regularly to deter any aggressive use of aviation near Crimea as there is very little Russia can do if their aircraft is "accidentally" shot down by a NATO plane. This will force VKS to maintain constant air patrols next to NATO assets which will further complicate issues for Russia.

Su-57 will not be a factor. Without a full operational unit and developed tactics it is a propaganda stunt. The "combat use" is really part of the practical tests and developing knowledge for proper use of a VLO aircraft.
How are they going to run any missions when there is the ever present threat of Russian SAMs? How is it going to change anything when they will still have to fly low, which puts them at a disadvantage in any Air to Air engagement?

Access to ARH missiles will certainly help, but I fail to see how this one single change is going to change the dynamic. Su-35s will still launch R-37s from a further distance and with more energy, and those F-16s will still have to retreat.
 

Cult Icon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Looks like Vuledar (city pop. base 14,000) is the next 'fortified zone' that will be under continuous attack. Russia is starting to trash the city with MLRS, artillery, and air strikes and have been geolocated around the city. Russian press is there recording footage and Ukrainian social media of the situation inside the city is appearing.

Right wing Z-Oblast is occupied by a lot of Russian marines and the DPR.

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Ukrainian sources only identifies 2 Ukr brigades in the Vuledar area

The Kherson Oblast has been stripped of Ukr units, everything sent to the Donbass, in particular against Wagner.

The real mystery is how Wagner is capable of tying down so many Ukr formations.

There are a lot of rumors and speculations about their tactical methods.

Donetsk%20Battle%20Map%20Draft%20January%2029%2C2023.png


South of Bakhmut are several fortified zones that have been partially enveloped and contested since the first months of the war. The Russians appear to have either failed or for the most part not try hard to take these areas, preferring to contain them.

Toretsk front, Avdiivka front, Marinka front, and now the Vuledar front.

A further mystery is here. How will the Russians try to tackle these zones?

In the Bakhmut-Soledar area, the Wagner group has created a southern salient pointing towards Chasiv Yar. Perhaps if Ukraine retreats from Bakhmut, the Russian command will try to focus on outflanking and defeating the Toretsk zone once and for all.

And the Vuldear front is somehow related to Marinka front.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
there is very little Russia can do if their aircraft is "accidentally" shot down by a NATO plane.
Erm. Non-accidentally shooting down aircraft? Like the simplest answer possible. There is a long history of NATO reconnaissance missions shot down by Soviet interceptors during particularly warm times.

Yes, it's an escalation towards a conflict with NATO - and it isn't in NATO's interest to go that way.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Setting aside judgment on MarKoz81's post, the analysis of by this thread and the projections produced by those analyses have mostly not met that high bar. In fact, the analyses here have been wildly off. This includes my own.

The Russo-Ukrainian War is almost a year old. A. WHOLE. YEAR. OLD.

Let that sink in.

When it started, I imagined this might last as month or two. I could totally believe an ongoing insurgency after conquest. However, that Russia would not have outright beaten Ukraine in a conventional conflict surprised me. Furthermore, that Russia has been forced to give significant ground and taken very little elsewhere is, well, shocking.

I think from the beginning, whether forum members have been pro Russian or pro Ukrainian, people have tended to swallow propaganda far, far too easily. The members have been looking for information agreeing with what they think rather than what is happening. I think the forum should take a step back and do some introspection. We could be, and I thought in the beginning were, better than NAFO fellahs and tankies.

How about, mein herr, you offer up a counter analysis using other sources? Declaring Bellingcat sus is fine, but you would have been in far stronger a position if you had followed up with your own data.

My apologies for the rare appearances folks. I have 8 people to take care of now, as some of you who were following in the thread earlier know. Life gets wild with such large changes and...exhausting.

If you think that a war over a year old is a big thing, then you never ever really come close to studying about war. The Korean War was three years. The Sino-Japanese War was like 13 years. The Vietnam War was about 20 years. Bosnian War is like 3 years. Afghan War is 20 years. The ISIS war is still ongoing. The Houthi war is still ongoing from 2015. The Kurdish War goes back to 1978 and still ongoing. If you want to go back in time, the Mongols never defeated the Song within Genghiz Khan's lifetime. In fact, it finally took his grandson to do it. Despite the all conquering image the Mongols had, beating the Song was not a clean sweep, there were many sharp defeats. The same goes with the Mongols fighting the Jin (proto-Manchu). They took many losses to the Jin and it took a collusion between the Mongols and the Song to beat the Jin.

For something unrelated and post saving,

A M113 and YPR-765 APC were taken out by Russian artillery. I suspect the culprit are Krasnopols.


Facilities in Odessa go boom.

 
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Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
If you want to go back in time, the Mongols never defeated the Song within Genghiz Khan's lifetime.
Offtop:
Jin*. Or, technically, even Xi Xia. I.e. the only semi-Chinese state(at least in form) destruction of which Chinghis Khan oversaw himself was Qara-Khitai.
Mongol-Song wars didn't even begin when he was alive. Southern Song at that point was still busy showing its far geopolitical vision (sarcasm) it was so known for - i.e. backstabbed Jurchens as best as they possibly could.

But it's still a very nice point, that 'rapid' destruction of those states in fact spanned over decades of total war (Xi Xia to a lesser degree, but Jin literally fought a total war to death in a sense which even for XXth century wars is extreme). Wars that can not be ended by the flawless work of general staffs are long affairs.
 
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