The War in the Ukraine

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
All too tempting to interpret this as meaning that 3 pilots (or even co-pilots etc) were killed/wounded - which would be huge. There could/would be many more basic support staff in addition to the pilots/flight crews there.

As a Bulgarian, I can say that the Bulgarian Christo Grozev is not a reliable source of information. In Bulgaria, Christo Grozev has a very low level of trust. His propaganda is aimed at the deluded Western public.
With relatively high tempo of ops recently, it's a reasonable assumption that some piloting staff may have been wounded or even killed in addition to normal support staff.

Not sure how trust worthy this source is, but the risk of future strikes seems unacceptable for the Russian side.
 

SolarWarden

Junior Member
Registered Member
I beg to differ. Time is not on Ukraine's side. The longer the war, the worse the situation for Ukraine. The West will eventually lose interest, like what happened in Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan. Every new president has less interest than the one before. 10 years from now, the US will have much less interest in Ukraine conflict compared to today.
I beg to differ your differ. Difference between Ukraine, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan is in Ukraine no US soldiers are fighting and dying. When US is depleting Russia's conventional forces and capabilities and all its costing is old US equipment and $40billion here $40 billion there where most of that money stays in the US, time is on Ukraine's side somewhat. By mid summer of 2023 if Ukraine has made huge gains (very likely outcome) they are good but if it's a stalemate like now they could be in trouble with some of the funding.
 

Stealthflanker

Senior Member
Registered Member
What is the differences between Tornado-S to a Smerch i'm curious ? Is it the rocket it fires or something else. Because from what i see so far they look the same. So does the Tornado-G.

I'm kinda thinking that the design is actually a "kit" and new rockets for both Smerch and Grad.. While Uragan.. might go extinct instead.
 

emblem21

Major
Registered Member
Russia can be used as an important ally against China. China is America's true nemesis. China is the oldest continuous civilization on the planet. On top of that, China has 4 times the population of America. Not to mention Chinese discipline and intelligence is second to none. It is not in American interest to weaken Russia too much.



I think Smerch can be upgraded to Tornado-S and Grad can be upgraded to Tornado-G. The chassis is the exact same. Tornado-G supposedly has a slightly different launcher which has a shield like structure at the front.
I think the ships already sale in regards to the USA gaining Russias aid against China. The USA has spent decades smashing Russia down at every opportunity and now situations have arrised where the true power behind the US Hegemony can now be put into jeopardy (the petrol dollar). Why would Russia ever want to ally with the USA anyway given that China has been assisting Russia in the protection of their economy, not to mention the people in Russia now despised the west more then any other point in history and look at how the USA messed up every chance for Russia to negotiate a peace deal. It’s more likely that with the way that US is treating everyone, they will have almost no Allie’s to help them in the future
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Russian military has been beset by corruption and negligence for years. Ideally Russian army should have 100 Tornado-S at the start of the conflict. The US has about 300 HIMARS by comparison.
What is the differences between Tornado-S to a Smerch i'm curious ? Is it the rocket it fires or something else. Because from what i see so far they look the same. So does the Tornado-G.
I'm kinda thinking that the design is actually a "kit" and new rockets for both Smerch and Grad.. While Uragan.. might go extinct instead.
The Tornado systems are modernizations. They added electronics to the cabin, they have new missiles, and new vehicle chassis.

Instead of having to consult a ballistics table and adjusting the Grad launcher, you can insert the GLONASS coordinates of the grid you want to hit in an electronics module inside the cabin of the truck and it does the adjusting for you. The electronics in each vehicle can receive target coordinates from the army centralized command system network instead of needing a separate command truck for the Grad battery to do this. These systems also come with new missiles. For example the Grad now comes with a rocket with twice the range, 40km instead of 20km, this was done with slimmer casing and new propellant. It is still compatible with older rockets as well. The vehicle chassis has an improved 240hp turbocharged diesel engine, so it should be capable of higher road speeds. Original Grad had 120hp gasoline engine, which was upgraded with 210hp diesel in 1970s.

The Smerch upgrade does similar electronics upgrades i.e. it adds GLONASS capability to the system. It also has several new missiles available for it including a long range GLONASS guided round.

As for delays of introduction into service and reduced production of these systems. The Smerch uses a high mobility 8x8 vehicle chassis made in Belarus. They wanted to replace it with a vehicle chassis designed and made in Russia, but that program i.e. Platforma-O by KamAZ, was a failure. KamAZ wanted to use hybrid propulsion with one electric engine per wheel. This vehicle chassis turned out to be too complex, expensive, heavy, and prone to failure. All because they did not want to design a complex mechanical transmission. Platforma-O was supposed to replace the Belarussian vehicles used in the Bastion, Iskander, Smerch, Yars, etc. The government considers the use of imported vehicles on the launchers of the strategic deterrent to be a problem. Guess why. In theory, for the Smerch launcher, a BAZ Russian truck similar to the one used in the S-400 and S-350 systems should also work. There are 8x8 versions of it with over 500hp. But, because this truck was not available when the program started, or because production is already all tied up in the S-400 and S-350, or whatever this was not pursued. The Grad uses an Ural truck. The factory for that, which I think was in Moscow, was demolished and the land was used for urban redevelopment. They seem to have built a new factory elsewhere since they are producing new trucks. But for several years there could be no production because of this.

The Russian government wanted to make KamAZ the producer of all the trucks for the army in the early 2000s. You could say it was to try to reduce the logistics footprint in the case of the small trucks, the Soviets used to have like 4 truck designs made by different factories with different engines, while this was mostly successful with the small trucks being mostly converted to the KamAZ vehicles thus reducing logistics costs, the military did complain that the KamAZ trucks were less reliable in the field than the Ural trucks for example. In the case of the larger vehicles making KamAZ design them was an abject failure. They simply lacked the skills to do it. The only factory Russia had which made heavy vehicles in the 8x8 category back then, designed a replacement vehicle for the Uragan launcher vehicle in the late 1990s, the KZKT-7428, but they struggled without orders for almost two decades before finally going belly up. I still somewhat remember hearing about this back then. The government said the vehicles had a lot of deficiencies, they did not want to pay for the vehicles, the company tried selling vehicles to the oil & gas companies, they refused to pay for them. It was a mess really. KZKT was shut down in 2010.

The Russian military complains that the KamAZ trucks break down more often in field conditions in rough terrain than the Ural trucks did and are way more complicated to service in the field when they break down as well. The KamAZ trucks however have better speed in paved roads and there are lots of parts and proper service stations for them inside Russia. So pick your poison.

Basically the Russians had to continue using the Ural trucks on the Grad, and buy vehicles from MAZ in Belarus with the Smerch, since KamAZ failed to deliver proper vehicles for those applications. This was the main cause for delays on either of those programs. Ural and KZKT languished with a lack of orders in Yeltsin's time, and defense minister Anatoliy Serdyukov (2007-2012) basically put the knife on them betting everything on KamAZ. That did not work 100% well.
 
Last edited:

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
The lack of the nose guidance system for the Ataka, would indeed make it an NM. It still lacks the Vitebsk DIRCM, so they are still more vulnerable to MANPAD's than Ka-52's
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
From @Colonel Cassad

"The Russian Defense Ministry announced the goals of missile strikes on Kramatorsk. They worked out the repair and restoration point of barrel and rocket artillery, which was located in the industrial zone of Kramatorsk. 2 HIMARS MLRS, 2 122-mm self-propelled guns "Gvozdika", 5 122-mm D-30 towed howitzers + 3 units of special vehicles were destroyed, which were under repair.
Good catch."

This isn't mentioned in the other Russian Telegram channels but there's a pic on one channel that shows there is indeed a strike on the industrial sector of Kramatorsk but no mention of the destruction inside.

TOS-1A attack leaves Ukrainian tanks burning.


Lancet takes out another M777.

 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Holy cow! if you were to crudely breakdown the figures further, we might not be looking at a country called Ukraine in 2 years. Having lost 15 million people to the EU and Russia, it leaves them with 25 million, half of whom are women . We are left 12.5 million men and according to Statista

" In 2021, approximately 15.91 percent of the population in Ukraine was aged between 0 and 14, about 66.78 percent were between 15 and 64 years old, and about 17.31 percent were aged 65 and older."

If 33.2% can't be drafted, Ukraine can only recruit from a pool of 8 million men, and it falls further if they draft from ages 20–50.

This is a lost cause, and the earlier they come alive to that fact, the faster they can save their country .
Most of those remaining are probably men because Elensky is imprisoning men who attempt to flee. And some may argue with me that these refugees will return, they can't be counted as irreversible casualties like a death. But actually, they can. Simple fact: refugees almost never return. And if women and children leave, the demographic future of the country is doomed.

Vietnam is a stable country and has been for 20-30 years. China and Vietnam have diplomatic relationships and can be said to be cordial. Yet almost all of the 300k Vietnamese refugees fleeing to China due to the Vietnam War are still in China today.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The difference is that Vietnam had a fertility rate almost 6, and median age of 18, so if a few million flee its all good.

Another example is Afghanistan, where there's millions of Pashtun refugees still in Pakistan 30 years after the end of the Soviet war.

How I see this is the classical Russian boxing rope a dope. In boxing the rope a dope is where you lean against the ropes and pretend to get cornered on the defensive, let the opponent tire themselves out and expose themselves by allowing the rope to absorb some of the energy rather than your body, and when they are too tired/make a mistake, you knock them out in 1 blow.
 
Top