The relation between China and the neighboring country

manqiangrexue · Oct 11, 2020

gadgetcool5 said:
America has never gone it alone.

World War I: The beginning of the American Century. Was America alone? No, it joined the Entente Powers, including Britain, France, Japan, Italy and Russia. America joined the largest coalition with bigger population, economic, technology against the smaller one (Germany, Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire e.g., Central Powers).

World War II: The beginning of the American superpower. Was America alone? No, it joined the Allied Powers, including dozens of countries all over the world but especially Britain, France, the Soviet Union, and China. Again, America joined the largest coalition with bigger population, economy, and technology against the smaller one (Germany, Italy, and Japan, e.g. Axis Powers).

Cold War: The beginning of the American unilateral world system. Was America alone? No, it had the entire Western Bloc behind it, including Britain, France, Italy, West Germany, Japan, and Canada. America again led the largest coalition with bigger economy than the Soviet Bloc. By the 1980s the Western Bloc also had better technology and bigger population, since China was closer to the Western Bloc at that time.

An analysis of American power shows that it has never gone alone, rather, its entire power basis has always been its alliance system, and the fact that it is part of the larger Bloc. This is how it has come to defeat all challengers: Reich Germany, Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, and Japan.

Again, that is the case today. America is in a Bloc with the EU, Japan, Australia, SK, Taiwan, and India, going against China, Russia and Pakistan. Again the American bloc is bigger in economy, military spending, technology and population. China is smaller. Same as before.

Notion that America has declined is a myth. It is still 20%-25% of the world economy same as always. It has by far the world's largest and deepest financial markets. It has the world' most advanced technology and most spending on basic & applied research. Along with its allies, it has by far the most overall R&D spending.

America is continually advancing all the time, with the NASDAQ technology index up 22% just this year (despite the pandemic) and companies like Apple and Amazon double their value in the past 2 years alone.

Companies like SpaceX achieving new things every year.

America is still on top and the notion that it is in decline is a costly mistake. If China truly wants to challenge the US it must gain more friends and allies, deepen existing alliances, & seek better relations with other countries.

Apples and oranges. Wars have sides to join; that America never found itself fighting a World War against an alliance has nothing to do with its confidence to innovate. This is building technology, completely different from joining a war, and America has always proudly claimed to be supreme there. Now, it says it cannot do this alone, and not for some unprecedented magnanimous task like striking an asteroid that would destroy the world or saving the earth from global warming, no, just staying ahead of China LOL. Clearly a change in how it sees its own abilities and clearly, it places itself beneath its Chinese rival.

The bloc means nothing. First of all, it's fragmented; they each have their own interests that are the undercurrent of their fluid, temporary, and conditional participation while China is united. Combined, without India, they have fewer STEM graduates than China (but India does nothing notable with their scientists). AND their STEM graduates are on a one-to-one bases, inferior to their Chinese counterparts. Have you seen math competitions before? Top always dominated by Chinese people from every country; it's really a competition of who has more Chinese scientists.

You're always scouring for any details that point to American strength while ignoring the trends that point to its weakness. America is in decline in comparison to China, not as an absolute value, except for this year, where it will decline in absolute value. First of all, using a mild growth in stocks to evaluate economic performance in America is wrong because stocks are propped up by the Fed and can grow in a depression or simply triple in value in the years where the real economy only grows by less than a third. American GDP is the big picture of economic performance and quite frankly, America is in a recession despite the US government all in their power to manipulate numbers to hide the true extent of weakness this year.

American tech companies may be "achieving things this year" (truly vague and desperate way to put things) but Chinese tech companies are doing far more. That is why America is in decline relative to China.

China can accept alliances with countries that deserve them like Russia, but other countries that think they can start problems with China don't deserve the honor, privilege or benefits.

Hey, I got an idea! If you have split personality and are pro-China on western forums and anti-China here as you claim, why don't you top bothering mentally stable people everywhere and just go argue with yourself? Start a new thread for it; it will be hilarious. We can all watch, maybe turn it into a case study for abnormal psychology

Phead128 · Oct 11, 2020

India is playing all sides to maximize self-benefit. So China can safely ignore India's posturing on the QUAD.

US doesn't view India as a reliable ally because she accepted Russia's S-400 weapons and even joined SCO.

So India's flirting with QUAD is not scaring China at all. It's a virtual non-factor.

Hendrik_2000 · Oct 13, 2020

SPOOPYSKELETON said:
More shilling for mass immigration? Really gadget, look at the past 20 years of US history, can you honestly say that mass immigration has improved anything about America?

They have been saying that for almost decade citing south America as an example But China is not south America. South America squandered their change because they use the surplus for consumption and giving wasteful and over generous social welfare rivaling the western Europe all the while they don't improve the efficiency or the competitiveness of the economy like improving in education, infrastructure, health welfare, larger participant of private enterprises, cutting red tape and encourage FDI, Chinese entrepreneurship, create digital economy. Chinese people save their disposable income instead of spending it like in the west

China on the other hand did all those on steroid and her development model is closer to her Asian neighbor like Korea and Japan than South America. Yup mindless immigration does not apply to China since China is 1. 4 billion people and her economic future is based going for higher value economy instead of mindless consumption economy.
Even the poorest migrant worker has dream one day to become his own boss. Because the system allow it to do that Chinese saving rate is the highest in the world. It is the energy and dream of average people that create wealth I know that because I see it with my own eye Overseas Chinese come to SEA with shirt on their back yet within couple generation they become wealthy.

SPOOPYSKELETON · Oct 13, 2020

Hendrik_2000 said:
They have been saying that for almost decade citing south America as example But China is not south America. South America squandered their change because the use the surplus for consumption and giving wasteful and over generous social welfare rivaling the western Europe all the while they don't improve the efficiency or the competitiveness of the economy like improving in education, infrastructure, health welfare, larger participant of private enterprises, cutting red tape and encourage FDI, Chinese entrepreneurship, create digital economy. Chinese people save their disposable income instead of spending it like in the west

China on the other hand did all those on steroid and her development model is closer to her Asian neighbor like Korea and Japan than South America. Yup mindless immigration does not apply to China since China is 1. 4 billion and her economic development is based going for higher value economy instead of mindless assembly economy.
Even the poorest migrant worker has dream one day to become his own boss. Because the system allow it to do that Chinese saving rate is the highest in the world

Considering the American strategy here is to bring in South America, the first few questions that need to be asked is

1) What is so special about being an American consumer? If an immigrant American consumer is going to have bigger purchasing power than your average Brazilian, then either the state must subsidize the immigrant or the immigrant must exist in a much more productive environment. I am not seeing how having a massive pool of easily arbitraged labor is going to improve American innovation. Seems like its going to do the opposite.

2) Living standards have only declined since mass immigration started, both in Mexico as well as the United States. The flooding of Mexico with American agriculture under the guise of "free trade" both destroyed small farmers in Mexico, forcing them to work as exploitable migrant labor in America. This will only intensify w/ more immigration, as now the immigrants are going to be competing for middle class jobs instead of low wage work.

3) I actually think the political/cultural impact of mass immigration is overrated, since its obvious to anyone that the media is very adept at getting ppl to vote for the desired party.

******************************

TrinketFool6 said:
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India had expected that the Chinese economy would collapse because of the Covid-19 pandemic by March or April. It considered that it could take revenge for its defeat in the 1962 Sino-Indian war. India also believed that China’s economic, military, and strategic advancement could be halted with US help...

India was hoping to become a 5 trillion dollar economy soon... but likely instead will get downgraded to junk status...

The more honest question to ask is what if India never catches up anywhere close to China....

The Indians got their ass kicked, end of discussion. If getting dominated in a fight they started is enough for them to break off relationships, then an equal relationship was never possible. The real question China should be asking is that given the obvious disparity in strength, what should be done with that strength to India?

Gatekeeper · Oct 13, 2020

gadgetcool5 said:
Actually, there are worse scenarios for China than falling into the “middle-income trap”. For one thing, it may escape the so-called Thucydides’ trap – or a third world war – as Beijing realises it’s unrealistic and counterproductive to compete with the US for world dominance. Since the late 1970s, China has been able to pay for both guns and butter because of its phenomenal economic expansion. At some point in the coming decades, it may have to choose butter over guns and scale back its global ambitions

You really are trying to have your cakes and eat it. On the one hand, panicking over China's loosing it's working population that will make it poorer. And stuck in the "middle income trap". You do realised this "middle income trap" is only a theory based on observation of mainly Latin American countries. One thing all these countries never had, and china have in abundance is market size.

Be that As it may. Don't you think as China progress, efficiency improved that does not require more factor of production input in the form of labour! As such, income rise to escape the "middle income trap".

In fact for your information, China is on the verge of breaking the middle income barrier as per the world bank defination. With the reduction of labour, the cake can be shared more with less people. Sure, overall the national income may not increase as much, or indeed at all, but then the "middle income" is never about arrgregate national income. It is per capita. So less people the better. Just look at India if you want population "dividend". Lol

ansy1968 · Oct 13, 2020

From my understanding of economics, automation and using of robotics will be an issue regarding labor employment. The result is a surplus of labor and most of them will be employed in low paying jobs like flipping burgers and waiters.

What the American had done and most of the western world is they allow the corporation to run the system without any gov't supervision, thus cartel and monopoly had form to the detriment of small and medium sized business, the core motive is profit with labor as a commodity easily replaceable. Allowing immigrants will only exacerbate the problem.

What China is doing is harnessing the power of technology to empower its populace to do business and become entrepreneur, An economic multiplier. They are able to do that by allowing competition (Alibaba vs JD.COM vs Pinduoduo) to exist. while at the same time train a talent pool of highly skill technician needed to run this system. She is using technology as a way out of so called middle income trap.

Deino · Oct 14, 2020

@gadgetcool5 and @TrinketFool6 ... stop with these constant off topic posts by bringing the USA and the Sino-US-relations into this topic. Even more any additional WW 3 scenarios, discussion on number of nukes a and potential targets will lead to an immediate ban.

Hendrik_2000 · Oct 14, 2020

Guess the Chinese vaccine is sprinting to the final end of trial and soon available across SEA a good way to cement relation with SEA and mitigate the suffering of people Since they don't have good health care system and helter skelter response to Covid 19 people suffer

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Indonesia can be manufacturing hub for COVID-19 vaccine, says Chinese foreign minister
M. Taufiqurrahman The Jakarta Post Jakarta / Tue, October 13, 2020

China stepped up its efforts in "vaccine democracy” over the weekend, with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi saying that joint vaccine programs between Indonesian and China could be the focus of new ties between the two countries.

Speaking after a meeting with visiting Coordinating Maritime Affairs and Investment Minister Luhut Pandjaitan, Wang said Indonesia could be a vaccine production hub for Southeast Asia in the near future. "China is willing to work with Indonesia on vaccine research, production and distribution, and support exchanges of relevant departments and medical institutes to help ensure access to affordable vaccines across the region and around the world," Wang said.

The Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said COVID-19 vaccines being developed in China may be ready for use by the general public as early as November. China has four COVID-19 vaccines in the final stage of clinical trials. At least three of those have already been offered to essential workers under an emergency use program launched in July. Phase 3 clinical trials are proceeding smoothly and the vaccines could be ready for the public in November or December. Beijing has promised that Southeast Asian countries would be among the first to receive the COVID-19 vaccines it develops once they become available.

Responding to Wang's statement, Luhut said he expected that following the Chinese government's commitment, many Indonesian doctors and health workers could join an exchange program and learned from the best practices in China. "I want more cooperation from our hospitals, our doctors and health workers as well as research and technological cooperation between the two countries," Luhut said in a statement made available to The Jakarta Post. Read also: Jokowi issues presidential regulation on COVID-19 vaccination Luhut was traveling with Health Minister Terawan Agus Putranto and director of state-run pharmaceutical company PT Bio Farma Honesti Basyir to finalize the procurement of a COVID-19 vaccine to be used by the government in a mass vaccination program beginning in November.

This article was published in

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with the title "Indonesia can be manufacturing hub for COVID-19 vaccine, says Chinese foreign minister". Click to read:

ansy1968 · Oct 14, 2020

Hendrik_2000 said:
Guess the Chinese vaccine is sprinting to the final end of trial and soon available across SEA a good way to cement relation with SEA and mitigate the suffering of people Since they don't have good health care system and helter skelter response to Covid 19 people suffer

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

Indonesia can be manufacturing hub for COVID-19 vaccine, says Chinese foreign minister
M. Taufiqurrahman The Jakarta Post Jakarta / Tue, October 13, 2020

China stepped up its efforts in "vaccine democracy” over the weekend, with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi saying that joint vaccine programs between Indonesian and China could be the focus of new ties between the two countries.

Speaking after a meeting with visiting Coordinating Maritime Affairs and Investment Minister Luhut Pandjaitan, Wang said Indonesia could be a vaccine production hub for Southeast Asia in the near future. "China is willing to work with Indonesia on vaccine research, production and distribution, and support exchanges of relevant departments and medical institutes to help ensure access to affordable vaccines across the region and around the world," Wang said.

The Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said COVID-19 vaccines being developed in China may be ready for use by the general public as early as November. China has four COVID-19 vaccines in the final stage of clinical trials. At least three of those have already been offered to essential workers under an emergency use program launched in July. Phase 3 clinical trials are proceeding smoothly and the vaccines could be ready for the public in November or December. Beijing has promised that Southeast Asian countries would be among the first to receive the COVID-19 vaccines it develops once they become available.

Responding to Wang's statement, Luhut said he expected that following the Chinese government's commitment, many Indonesian doctors and health workers could join an exchange program and learned from the best practices in China. "I want more cooperation from our hospitals, our doctors and health workers as well as research and technological cooperation between the two countries," Luhut said in a statement made available to The Jakarta Post. Read also: Jokowi issues presidential regulation on COVID-19 vaccination Luhut was traveling with Health Minister Terawan Agus Putranto and director of state-run pharmaceutical company PT Bio Farma Honesti Basyir to finalize the procurement of a COVID-19 vaccine to be used by the government in a mass vaccination program beginning in November.

This article was published in
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
with the title "Indonesia can be manufacturing hub for COVID-19 vaccine, says Chinese foreign minister". Click to read:

Hi Hendrik_2000,

The recent speech of President Duterte yesterday highlight that importance, both the Russian and Chinese vaccine, BUT indicated a preference for the latter.

Guess the Chinese vaccine is sprinting to the final end of trial and soon available across SEA a good way to cement relation with SEA and mitigate the suffering of people Since they don't have good health care system and helter skelter response to Covid 19 people suffer

I think there is an agreement for an emergency supply, Duterte had been saying that he will be providing a list of possible candidate, first to be given are the front liners and security forces, from the rumors I received half a million dosages will arriving in Nov.

hullopilllw · Oct 17, 2020

SPOOPYSKELETON said:
Considering the American strategy here is to bring in South America, the first few questions that need to be asked is

1) What is so special about being an American consumer? If an immigrant American consumer is going to have bigger purchasing power than your average Brazilian, then either the state must subsidize the immigrant or the immigrant must exist in a much more productive environment. I am not seeing how having a massive pool of easily arbitraged labor is going to improve American innovation. Seems like its going to do the opposite.

2) Living standards have only declined since mass immigration started, both in Mexico as well as the United States. The flooding of Mexico with American agriculture under the guise of "free trade" both destroyed small farmers in Mexico, forcing them to work as exploitable migrant labor in America. This will only intensify w/ more immigration, as now the immigrants are going to be competing for middle class jobs instead of low wage work.

3) I actually think the political/cultural impact of mass immigration is overrated, since its obvious to anyone that the media is very adept at getting ppl to vote for the desired party.

******************************

The Indians got their ass kicked, end of discussion. If getting dominated in a fight they started is enough for them to break off relationships, then an equal relationship was never possible. The real question China should be asking is that given the obvious disparity in strength, what should be done with that strength to India?

The Quad meeting ended without a joint statement. Number one bootlicker Australia is outright unnerved at the prospect of sacrificing her economic ties with China to appease US' foreign policy demand. India is still naively weighting how much benefit she extract from US for agreeing to join in. RCEP is going to be singned in this coming November, 230Duderte gave the greenlighht for China and Philippines to co develop gas fields in SCS, Indonesia and Malaysia busy courting Chinese investors. This is the worst possible time to be pushing for an Asian NATO.

The relation between China and the neighboring country

manqiangrexue

Brigadier

Phead128

Captain

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General

SPOOPYSKELETON

Junior Member

Gatekeeper

Brigadier

ansy1968

Brigadier

Deino

Lieutenant General

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General

ansy1968

Brigadier

hullopilllw

Junior Member