RedMercury
Junior Member
And the communications will be strongly encrypted, of course.
The Q-5, J-7, J-8 and older PLAAF aircraft
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Semi-Lobster
Junior Member
Is there any speculation of when the J-8F production will end? I know that production of all J-7s ended this year but is there any rough guess when Shenyang rolls out its last J-8F? Also IIRC about a post Crobato made on another forum, since 2007 120 new J-8Fs have been built? Has production still been around 30 aircraft a yearish? Are there any numbers yet for the J-8H upgrades around yet as well? Lastly, how has progress been on the WP-14 Kunlun? I don't think I remember hearing about it at this years Zhuhai but there are still 'rumours' flying around (like always) that the Kunlun has already begun being used to upgrade J-8Ds to J-8Hs. Did anybody notice anything like that on the J-8Ds they had on display at this years Zhuhai?
Sorry about all the questions but the J-8H/F tends to get overshadowed by news from other, newer Chinese fighters like the JF-17, J-10 and J-11B.
Sorry about all the questions but the J-8H/F tends to get overshadowed by news from other, newer Chinese fighters like the JF-17, J-10 and J-11B.
We have seen black nosed J-8IIs, which can either be brand new J-8F, J-8H or conversions from J-8D on the following groups,
3rd Regiment 1st Division (pure J-8F)
one regiment in 9th Division (mixed)
one or two regiments in 21st Division (mixed)
one regiment in 37th Division (pure J-8F)
one regiment in the 19th Division (mixed)
one regiment in the 29th Division (mixed)
one regiment in the PLANAF 5th Division (pure)
one regiment in the PLANAF 9th Division (mixed)
A test group with the CFTC.
One photo-recon regiment using JZ-8F version.
The total of black nosed J-8s must be higher by now. It's impossible to tell the J-8F from the J-8H physically, since there is no distinguishing features between the two. However, planes converted from J-8Ds still retain the J-8D's wing fences, which is one small wing fence followed by a larger wing fence, while the J-8F/H uses two large wing fences of equal size on each wing.
Some of these groups appear to still have J-8Ds mixed with them. This suggests that these particular groups are also gradually converting their J-8Ds into the upgrade standard.
It looks to me that all the J-8Ds might eventually be converted to J-8F standard, electronically speaking, though their wings and engines may remain the same.
J-8H is the black nosed J-8II that has the earlier KLJ-1 slotted array radar. Production started in 2001. However by 2004, they're superceded by the J-8F which is the same plane but has the KLJ-1 radar upgraded to a new one that is PL-12 capable. So far it looks like the radar change is only what is different between the two, aside from possibly using the Kunlun engine on the J-8F and the WP-13B (or BII) on the J-8H. This looks to me its not difficult to have J-8Hs electronically upgraded to the J-8F, though they may retain their WP-13B engines.
As a threat assessment, all black nosed J-8IIs should be considered PL-12 capable, which makes them far more lethal than J-8IIs that don't carry them.
3rd Regiment 1st Division (pure J-8F)
one regiment in 9th Division (mixed)
one or two regiments in 21st Division (mixed)
one regiment in 37th Division (pure J-8F)
one regiment in the 19th Division (mixed)
one regiment in the 29th Division (mixed)
one regiment in the PLANAF 5th Division (pure)
one regiment in the PLANAF 9th Division (mixed)
A test group with the CFTC.
One photo-recon regiment using JZ-8F version.
The total of black nosed J-8s must be higher by now. It's impossible to tell the J-8F from the J-8H physically, since there is no distinguishing features between the two. However, planes converted from J-8Ds still retain the J-8D's wing fences, which is one small wing fence followed by a larger wing fence, while the J-8F/H uses two large wing fences of equal size on each wing.
Some of these groups appear to still have J-8Ds mixed with them. This suggests that these particular groups are also gradually converting their J-8Ds into the upgrade standard.
It looks to me that all the J-8Ds might eventually be converted to J-8F standard, electronically speaking, though their wings and engines may remain the same.
J-8H is the black nosed J-8II that has the earlier KLJ-1 slotted array radar. Production started in 2001. However by 2004, they're superceded by the J-8F which is the same plane but has the KLJ-1 radar upgraded to a new one that is PL-12 capable. So far it looks like the radar change is only what is different between the two, aside from possibly using the Kunlun engine on the J-8F and the WP-13B (or BII) on the J-8H. This looks to me its not difficult to have J-8Hs electronically upgraded to the J-8F, though they may retain their WP-13B engines.
As a threat assessment, all black nosed J-8IIs should be considered PL-12 capable, which makes them far more lethal than J-8IIs that don't carry them.
Semi-Lobster
Junior Member
Thanks Crobato! You really are the go-to guy for this sort of information! (My Simplified reading skills are absolutely terrible). I'm still wondering about the progress on the WP-14 though, it seems like it will be the final major upgrade for the J-8 series, since production (I assume, but then again, I'm certainly no expert) will end within five or so years (if not sooner), I was hoping to see the the WP-14 sooner rather than later. Speaking of production, do you know if J-8F production has been outstripped by J-8H upgrades (from earlier J-8B and J-8Ds) in the past several years with the J-10A and J-11B becoming more prominent? Also its sort of strange that at Zhuhai this year that they had two J-8Ds. I know there's pretty much 0% chance of exporting the J-8 anywhere now but it would have been a good chance to seem one in the air.
Thanks for the info Crobato, you're a real big help!
I guess the PLAAF wants to show the J-10. We don't have live J-7s, J-11s, Q-5s and for some reason I didn't see the FTC-2000 either. The JF-17 didn't make a live appearance either.
As a note the J-8Ds that appeared in Zhuhai were from the 9th Division PLAAF, and the J-8II unit connected to that division is known to have J-8Ds being converted to the new standard. In fact, the photo of a factory assembly line showing the conversions taking place have planes showing the units numbers corresponding to this unit.
I would say the J-8F production itself is rather slow, perhaps like a regiment per year, if it remains to be continued this year. Much of what's happening has been upgrades from J-8Ds. There don't seem to be plans to upgrade the J-8Bs or J-8Bs that have been upgraded to the avionics and IFR of the J-8Ds. I would think the PLAAF is saving their units for J-10 and J-11B conversions.
As a note the J-8Ds that appeared in Zhuhai were from the 9th Division PLAAF, and the J-8II unit connected to that division is known to have J-8Ds being converted to the new standard. In fact, the photo of a factory assembly line showing the conversions taking place have planes showing the units numbers corresponding to this unit.
I would say the J-8F production itself is rather slow, perhaps like a regiment per year, if it remains to be continued this year. Much of what's happening has been upgrades from J-8Ds. There don't seem to be plans to upgrade the J-8Bs or J-8Bs that have been upgraded to the avionics and IFR of the J-8Ds. I would think the PLAAF is saving their units for J-10 and J-11B conversions.
Semi-Lobster
Junior Member
Speaking of the 'new' ‘look-down/shoot-down’ KLJ-1, what exactly are its specifications compared to the 'old' KLJ-1? I hear about it talked about often enough but when it comes down to it, I'm not really sure what its capable of. Also it seems what you're saying is that there are some J-8Hs that can fire the PL-12 while there are others that can only fire the PL-11?
The KLJ-1 should have look down and shoot down from the start. To have this, the radar must have MTI or GMTI (Moving Target Indicator), and the ability to swing the radar scan to the lowered position. Having a movable slotted array planar antenna hits both birds with one stone, because to have MTI, you need a monopulse radar, something that is aided though not required, with a flat slotted disk for an antenna, and because this antenna can be moved by a swiveling arm, lets the radar look "down".
The thing is the KLJ-1 was introduced before the PL-12 became operational. So all the earlier batches may not be PL-12 certified, although the ground work for anticipated mods would have been in place because they would already certainly know that the PL-12 project was undergoing and sooner or later, it would have to be incorporated.
So I would assume the planes with the later radars would be PL-12 enabled from the start, while older ones introduced before the PL-12 operation date would need the radars to be upgraded for the PL-12.
Its hard to say what the specifications are; ranges specified may not be truthful to hide confidential data. But from what I have seen it appears to have all the necessary modes expected for modern fighter radars, and a few things like sea search and targeting that makes them a bit more different. If the info is true, this means that these radars are sea enabled, already compensated for sea type clutter, and can be used over water to search and target small targets on the water surface or those flying fast low above the water surface. Many radars are not like that, including the Zhuk-8II that were once marketed to China for J-8II upgrade. Obviously that is a PLANAF requirement. Note that the PLANAF are adopting the new J-8IIs but not adopted the Su-27, J-11 and J-10 yet, and their Su-30MK2 has different mod on the radars compared to the Su-30MKK.
The thing is the KLJ-1 was introduced before the PL-12 became operational. So all the earlier batches may not be PL-12 certified, although the ground work for anticipated mods would have been in place because they would already certainly know that the PL-12 project was undergoing and sooner or later, it would have to be incorporated.
So I would assume the planes with the later radars would be PL-12 enabled from the start, while older ones introduced before the PL-12 operation date would need the radars to be upgraded for the PL-12.
Its hard to say what the specifications are; ranges specified may not be truthful to hide confidential data. But from what I have seen it appears to have all the necessary modes expected for modern fighter radars, and a few things like sea search and targeting that makes them a bit more different. If the info is true, this means that these radars are sea enabled, already compensated for sea type clutter, and can be used over water to search and target small targets on the water surface or those flying fast low above the water surface. Many radars are not like that, including the Zhuk-8II that were once marketed to China for J-8II upgrade. Obviously that is a PLANAF requirement. Note that the PLANAF are adopting the new J-8IIs but not adopted the Su-27, J-11 and J-10 yet, and their Su-30MK2 has different mod on the radars compared to the Su-30MKK.
Semi-Lobster
Junior Member
Thanks Crobato, that clears up alot. Sorry for all the questions but frankly, most English aviation websites are TERRIBLE when it comes to Chinese aircraft (Just look how many of them call the JF-17/FC-1 a 'Third Generation' aircraft without taking into simple account that China has a different generation designation system).
You said that J-8F production is slow and wonder 'if it remains to be continued this year.' Do you think this is the final year of J-8F production or at least very close and that the only future for the J-8 are J-8D upgrades to J-8H? Because it would be sort of strange for production to end before the much anticipated WP-14 Kunlun is (officially) introduced, but I guess it could just be a massive engine overhaul. Does anybody know anything about the Kunlun? Like its output or dimensions yet?
You said that J-8F production is slow and wonder 'if it remains to be continued this year.' Do you think this is the final year of J-8F production or at least very close and that the only future for the J-8 are J-8D upgrades to J-8H? Because it would be sort of strange for production to end before the much anticipated WP-14 Kunlun is (officially) introduced, but I guess it could just be a massive engine overhaul. Does anybody know anything about the Kunlun? Like its output or dimensions yet?
I would think that the J-8F are all by now using the Kunlun, although the J-8H when first introduced in 2001, they were still using the WP-13B. Personally I believe the transition to be around 2004-2005.
This year or even last year may have been the final year of J-8F production, and all that is left maybe J-8D upgrades. There don't seem to be any more impetus to produce the J-8F once the J-11B is done, and we expect a new J-10 version RSN (Real Soon Now). There might still be J-8F production for the PLANAF or for specialized units like the photo recon groups.
For the same reason, the J-7G does not appear to be continued any longer and further J-7 production goes into export.
The dimensions of the Kunlun is exactly like the WP-13 series right down to the location of the gearbox. Its was designed to be plug in compatible with the WP-13A or B for the same aircraft, like J-7 and J-8II. You want the engine to be as physically and fittings alike so the main aircraft requires as little modifications as possible. So this is a case of an engine that from the physical side, looks and has to be exactly like the engine it replaces, but the inner core has different workings.
However, the output appears stronger. Initially the maximum thrust is at 7500kg for the Kunlun I, and this looks bumped up to as high as 7800kg for the Kunlun II. In comparison the WP-13FII is around 6600kg for the J-7E, WP-13AII is around 6800kg for the J-8B/D, and the WP-13B is around 7000 to 7200kg for the J-8D/H. Put two Kunluns on the J-8F, and the thrust to weight ratio exceeds over unity, putting this antiquated design of an airplane with TWR matching that of 4th generation fighters like the F-16. So yeah, that's going to be fast and giddy.
This year or even last year may have been the final year of J-8F production, and all that is left maybe J-8D upgrades. There don't seem to be any more impetus to produce the J-8F once the J-11B is done, and we expect a new J-10 version RSN (Real Soon Now). There might still be J-8F production for the PLANAF or for specialized units like the photo recon groups.
For the same reason, the J-7G does not appear to be continued any longer and further J-7 production goes into export.
The dimensions of the Kunlun is exactly like the WP-13 series right down to the location of the gearbox. Its was designed to be plug in compatible with the WP-13A or B for the same aircraft, like J-7 and J-8II. You want the engine to be as physically and fittings alike so the main aircraft requires as little modifications as possible. So this is a case of an engine that from the physical side, looks and has to be exactly like the engine it replaces, but the inner core has different workings.
However, the output appears stronger. Initially the maximum thrust is at 7500kg for the Kunlun I, and this looks bumped up to as high as 7800kg for the Kunlun II. In comparison the WP-13FII is around 6600kg for the J-7E, WP-13AII is around 6800kg for the J-8B/D, and the WP-13B is around 7000 to 7200kg for the J-8D/H. Put two Kunluns on the J-8F, and the thrust to weight ratio exceeds over unity, putting this antiquated design of an airplane with TWR matching that of 4th generation fighters like the F-16. So yeah, that's going to be fast and giddy.
Semi-Lobster
Junior Member
Ahh, so for all we now there are already J-8H/Fs right now with WP-14 Kunlun engines! Well if this or the next year will be the last for the J-8II it will end a very important (but sort of convoluted) chapter in Chinese aviation history. How long do you think it will take to phase out the J-8 in the future? Years? Decades? After all, the PLA only retired the last combat J-6 in 2005, over 40 years since it was introduced. Wit that sort of lifespan possible, perhaps in the future there wil be another upgrade for the J-8, afterall, I just read that the J-8s have now been spotted with dorsal datalink antennas.