The Q-5, J-7, J-8 and older PLAAF aircraft

SteelBird said:

I think Crobato has given quite reasonable explain on why not to adopt double delta wings into J-8s. But you haven't explained why not a one piece wind shield which should enhance its visibility.

I think J-8 is a losing project with only about 300 samples of domestic sales of all variants. While some variants were funded by SAC and had no sale at all. Is Iran still interested in J-8F now? I think China should approve the sale. Why? The technology isn't anything advanced, so far as I know it use the same radar as FC-1. While FC-1 is there for export market, why not J-8F?

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With the current aircraft on the market to Iran, including the FC-1/JF-17, I really don't see the J-8F as a viable export anymore afterall, a lot has changed since Iran first made inquiries about the J-8. Even with a new upgrade, the area interceptor role isn't terribly pressing with todays radar and satellite, if all the red herring reports on Iran are to be taken with a grain of salt, we can see they're looking for a multi-role fighter while the J-8F, is an interceptor at heart with a multi-role customisation. Its fast, with long legs and a good service ceiling but the overall design is old, the electronics are showing their age, and once again, its abilities as a multi-role fighter are 'ok' but still show signs of its original design. Not that I'm knocking the J-8H/F, afterall they still have a place as an excellent BVRAAM platform but I think additional 'incentives' would be required to convince the Iranians to take the J-8 nowadays in its current state, over the MiG-29SMT, Su-30 or FC-1.

Re: j7 / j8 production

i guess this is as good of a thread as any to post J-8 news.

So, I guess one of the big shrimps on Chinese bbs posted this tidbit on j-8H

升校官啦.....那就发些东西吧..........HDCKSJ---J8H
出动能力：出动率，团百分之80以上，飞机18架以上。昼间出动强度3次以上。完成再次出动所需准备时间，团转

至新机场后1小时20分可再次起飞转场。完成起飞所需时间，大队2分33秒。中队33秒。中队与中队起飞间隔16秒。完

成着陆所需时间，大队9分钟，中队1分44秒。

战斗队形：战斗出航时通常由2---4个4机编队组成大队梯队。截击空中目标时通常以4机编队活动。攻击地面目标

时通常为双机跟进队形，最佳队形为双机与双机距离1---1.5千米，双机间隔110米。

飞行速度：最大时速高空17000米，2337千米。低空200米，1010千米。攻击目标时速攻击地面目标700---880千

米。截击空飘气球500---600千米。拦截空中飞机800---1940千米。

飞行高度：飞升限时18000米，对地攻击空中待战时2000---4000米，对地攻击战斗出航时通常800---3000米，最

高12000米。对地攻击战斗返航时通常1200---4500米，最高9000米。对地进入攻击时通常700---1600米。退出轰炸

时通常500---2100米。退出俯冲射击时通常离地350---400改平，上升至1000米以上脱离目标。对地面目标攻击时通常

500---1500米，最低200米，最高3000米。对空中目标攻击时通常3000---15000米，最低600米。

攻击地面目标：团每次出动兵力通常1个大队，飞机8架。加入战斗航线距离目标15千米左右。进入俯冲角度通常

10---20度，有时30---45度。一次出动单机可进行攻击次数通常2---4次，最多6次。单机在目标区活动时间通常6---17

分钟。发射导弹高度500米，时速900千米时，发射距离大于50千米，高度6000米时，发射距离大于100千米。

截击空中目标：攻击方式在中高空通常采用90度，180度转弯低位对头攻击，或90度，180度转弯低位尾追攻击。

负高度差通常在800---2500米，最小200米，最大5000米。在低空多用尾后高位攻击，高度差500---2000米。进入攻击

角度通常为10度---30度，最小0度，最大70度，投影比多为0/4，1/5.雷达开机时机通常距离目标45---80千米，最远

100千米。发现目标距离中 高空通常为75---90千米，最远110千米。截获目标距离在中高空通常为45---70千米。最远 80千米。低空通常为35---55千米。攻击目标距离在中高空通常单机进入一次实施两次攻击，首次攻击距目标40---65千米，最远80千米 第二次攻击距目标20---33千米，最近4千米。攻击间隔5---11秒。低空通常为3---8千米。 气象条件：可遂行战斗任务时目标区云底高600米，云量3---4个。机场区云高400米，云量6---8个，能见度5000米。
不可遂行战斗任务目标区云底高400米，云顶高3000米，能见度2000米

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it's honestly very revealing actually.
For example is the part on the radar (KLJ-1)'s performance.
It says that in medium to high altitude, they generally find the target at 75 to 90 km and furthest out at 110 km. The Lock-on to the target normally at 45 to 70 km, furthest at 80 km.
In low altitute, the lock on range is 35 to 55 km.
When attacking target, use two attacks, first one is at 40 to 65 km (furthest at 80). The second attack happens at 20 to 33 km, cloest at 4 km. There is about a 5 to 11 second difference in attacks.

Also about missile (either PL-11 or PL-12), launch altitude 500 m and initial speed at 900 km/h, launch distance > 50 km, when altitude > 6000, range reaches over 100 km.

J-8D being visited by foreign officers.

crobato said:

J-8D being visited by foreign officers.

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I believe the black guy is from Zimbabwe. Here is his photo from a few days ago with the caption:

Deputy defence attache WGCDR Richard Maboreke of Zimbabwe, a member of the Beijing Military Attache Corps visits the People's Liberation Army (PLA) naval barracks in Hong Kong on 19 September, 2008. The Beijing Military Attache Corps currently comprises 171 attach�from 96 countries, and who all represent their countries in the conduct of military relations with the People's Liberation Army.

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whoa, lotsa details in tp's post. it actually tells us something about PLAF BVR engagement doctrine too. whereas the soviets usually ripple fire two missiles in rapid succession, it seems like the PLAF is using a longer interval between two shots, wonder why that is. maybe the thinking behind that is the first shot will force the target into a high-G maneuver and the second shot can catch it in a low-energy state pulling out of the maneuver?

some expert claim J-8H is compatible to swedish JA-37 Viggen.
according to USAF pilot who actually test fly the J-8-2 in mid-80's claim that her turning radius is identical DC-9 passenger aircraft.but later model may have improve flight control system and engine.flight performance more or less identical Viggen.

read some news on Chinese bbs that they grounded all J-8Fs due to the recent accident. I'm not sure if mingpao got the entire detail of the accident though.

how good is the j-8ii in the battlefield and comparing to j-11,mig-29, mirage-2000, f-15, f-16, etc?
i know might sound like a really dumb question, but i want to find out because i know about the aircraft and its stats, but not how lethal or comparable in terms of performance it will be
after all it's made before the 90's, and there's a lot of aircraft in the 80's and the 90's that came out that are extremely formidable
our common su-27 family, rafale, eurofighter (late 2000), f16, f18, f15, mirage 2000, etc..

i heard this plane is only comprable to f-4, but i dont know how accurate that comparison is, and how effective it is in the battlefield

Usually for old aircraft, having active guided BVRAAMs is the equalizer. Whether you are in an old F-4, F-5E or MiG-21, when you have an active BVRAAM, at distance you got an equal shot against a newer aircraft like an F-16.

The superiority of aircraft modernity will come into play when you are in a short range dogfight engagement.

The J-8F and the J-8H with the active BVRAAM PL-12 are the only ones that can be credible against modern opposition so long they keep their distance, use their missiles at range, maintain a high speed in a fast and dash engagement. If they slow down and try to turn for a dogfight, they're toast. This means pilot discipline and smarts; the guy who thinks he's the Red Baron and tries to turn with an F-16 will be toasted. The J-8F and J-8F have newer and more powerful engines that give them a better power to weight ratio to help with the speed attacks.

The J-8D with the semi active PL-11 and PL-8 isn't going to fare as well. The PL-11 requires you keep the plane's nose on the target illuminating it with radar until the missile finishes its mission, hit the target or got lost. The problem with this is that if the plane is attacked by missiles and is forced to maneuver, the missile is lost. Thus this kind of missiles have a lower probability of kill. Ditto goes with the similar J-8B-02, which is the same as the J-8D with the older tail design and without the refueling probe.

The even older J-8s like the J-8E, which is the round inlet nose J-8I with the J-7E electronics and radar, are pure short ranged AAM only using the PL-8. These guys need to get close. These planes are not going to withstand modern fighter opposition, although they are still in service with one PLAAF division.

The J-8F and J-8H are the J-8IIs that can be identified with having a black nose with static stripes. The J-8D and J-8B-02 are the ones with the green nose.

Slightly unrelated question: where are the transmitters for communication with the BVR missile datalinks placed on modern combat planes? How does a plane track the missile it has just fired and how does it know where to point its datalink beam to? (the beam should be kinda narrow, so enemy is less likely to pick it up) Furthermore, how much off threat axis can a plane go after firing the missile, and still communicate with the missile and feed it precise data?