The PLAN LCAC Type 726 Yuyi Class

kroko said:

There is a big diference betwen this hovercraft and china´s LCAC. Besides, greece is an EU member and it cant export this kind of equipment to china.

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Interestingly enough, Greece being a member of the EU didn't stop it from getting Zubrs from Russia, and Greece selling her Zubrs to China wouldn't be considered 'export', since you know, the Greeks didn't manufacture them in the first place.

The Greeks, however, could really use some cash right about now. Just tow the Zubrs to the Chinese controlled port of Piraeus, and the Chinese will take care of the rest.

by78 said:

Interestingly enough, Greece being a member of the EU didn't stop it from getting Zubrs from Russia, and Greece selling her Zubrs to China wouldn't be considered 'export', since you know, the Greeks didn't manufacture them in the first place.

The Greeks, however, could really use some cash right about now. Just tow the Zubrs to the Chinese controlled port of Piraeus, and the Chinese will take care of the rest.

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This is really just an academic exercise.

The chances of china wanting used, old zubrs from Greece are very unlikely, considering they'll want to refit and modernize the original hulls, which may end up not costing much more than simply building a new hull themselves.

And it isn't like the PLAN is that desperate to gain an influx of zubrs either. I mean, a small fleet of zubrs are nice as short-medium range rapid reaction units against a low intensity enemy, but useless against when deployed at anything near longer range and against an enemy with air power

I seriously doubt China will base the Zubrs on any island in the SCS.

It would be too blatant a threat and escalation for China to choose to do unless something drastic happens. And even then I would not really expect Zubrs since they just don't fit any military role the PLAN might realistically be ask to do. I mean what plausible target in the SCS would require a Zubr full or marines and equipment to deal with?

If push really comes to shove, the PLAN would be the first responders, and after they are finished blasting whatever target offended China, a RIB full of their standard shipboard compliment of marines would probably be sufficient to mop up what's left and plan a flag.

Point is, any target that needs a Zubr full of marines to deal full cannot be dealt with by a single Zubr. You will need serious fire support to soften up such targets before you will even start to think about a beach assault, and that kind of firepower will need substantial built up anyways, so what benefit do you really get out of forward deploying Zubrs?

Doing so will only present a big fat juicy target to potential enemies and also limit the flexibility you have to respond to unexpected developments elsewhere compared to just keeping them based fairly close to the mainland.

I think that the main reason for the Zubr deal now is less the operational capacity the Zubrs themselves offer, and more to do with acquiring the technology and know-how to build them. The Zubrs bought could just be the price the Chinese had to pay to get that technology.

I would expect the PLAN to play around with the technology and probably start building Zubr based test ships for purposes other than the traditional beach assault mission the Zubrs were designed for. So, imagine if they removed the troop carrying capacity and stuff some big AShMs in a Zubr hull and made a bigger, badder and faster Type 022 missile boat.

They could maybe develop an ASW variant since the speed and zero draft of the Zubrs would make them near immune to torpedoes. You may need to give such a variant a hanger and helipad and/or use another asset to spot for it on account of the noise from the Zubrs.

Those are just a couple of examples I just thought off ottomh, but I think it illustrates the point that the Zubr bass potentially to be applied to other purposes and missions.

The reason for the Chinese starting to build Zubrs so soon could be to give the shipyard and workers some hands on experience applying the skills and technology they just acquired, and also as a test case to see if they are ready to start moving onto other designs.

plawolf said:

I seriously doubt China will base the Zubrs on any island in the SCS.

It would be too blatant a threat and escalation for China to choose to do unless something drastic happens. And even then I would not really expect Zubrs since they just don't fit any military role the PLAN might realistically be ask to do. I mean what plausible target in the SCS would require a Zubr full or marines and equipment to deal with?

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The same types of exercises that the PLAN accomplished in the past in establishing themselves at places like Fery Reef, Mishief Reef, and other places...in some cases combating small vessels that brought troops into to play to contend with those operations in the past.

Anyhow, my point was simply that it would be neat to see it. I agree that at this point it is not likely...and if they did, they would certainly want other ships involved in support for any major operation.

But for more minor operations, bringing a Zubr-load of Marines into play with minor skirmishes or in punctuating the PRCs determination to defend what it views as its interests would be something these vessels could do...and fairly quickly, wherever they are based.

plawolf said:

I think that the main reason for the Zubr deal now is less the operational capacity the Zubrs themselves offer, and more to do with acquiring the technology and know-how to build them. The Zubrs bought could just be the price the Chinese had to pay to get that technology.

I would expect the PLAN to play around with the technology and probably start building Zubr based test ships for purposes other than the traditional beach assault mission the Zubrs were designed for. So, imagine if they removed the troop carrying capacity and stuff some big AShMs in a Zubr hull and made a bigger, badder and faster Type 022 missile boat.

They could maybe develop an ASW variant since the speed and zero draft of the Zubrs would make them near immune to torpedoes. You may need to give such a variant a hanger and helipad and/or use another asset to spot for it on account of the noise from the Zubrs.

Those are just a couple of examples I just thought of, but I think it illustrates the point that the Zubr bass potentially to be applied to other purposes and missions.

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Well, they already have the capability to build them as normal Zubrs because they are doing so now. Now, whether they are ready to modify them in the several manners that you imply is another thing.

The current builds are probably license kit builds I would think that they are doing now from the Ukraine.

But it would be interesting to see if they come up with other variations. Almost like their own LCS of a sort.

prior said:

Facts:
Greece originally ordered 4 Zubrs.
2 from Russia and 2 from Ukraine.
The order of the first 2 (from Russia) was ok and both were accepted by Hellenic Navy (HN).
The order of the other 2 (from Ukraine) had problems and HN got only one of them.
The second one was rejected and after negotiations they decided to replace the non accepted one with a new build from Russia.
So, at the end, HN got 3 from Russia and only 1 from Ukraine.
Right now, HN has 3 operational Zubrs and they are about to restore the fourth one back to duty.
The second Zubr from Ukraine was NEVER accepted by HN.
That is why some people get confused about the total number bought from Greece.

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Can you elaborate the reasons for Greek's rejection?

Also, what happened to the Zubr that was rejected by Greece?

Jeff Head said:

But it would be interesting to see if they come up with other variations. Almost like their own LCS of a sort.

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I think if we do see a PLAN LCS it would be akin to the Taiwanese Tuo River corvette with enough range to operate within the 1st island chain. It will be the naval cavalry muscle to back up Type 056s which will free up all the current ocean going types for longer distance missions (such as the 054s, 054As, even the 053s, 051s etc).

I don't understand why everybody keeps talking about Zubrs and the Spratlys, they simply don't have the range. They would do quite well in the Penghus or Taiwan invasion in second wave ops after air and maritime control have been established. Sitting ducks in a first wave, large targets and very vulnerable. Not got the legs too be an LCS type of unit either without some very serious reengineering and reinventing.

jacksprat said:

I don't understand why everybody keeps talking about Zubrs and the Spratlys, they simply don't have the range.

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As I stated in my post...they would end up being based down in the Spratleys for them to effectivly work there.

But it was just mentioned as something "neat," not as a serious proposal.

As to the re-engineering, that was exactly what plawolf was talking about when I made the comment about them being a sort of Chinese LCS if they chose to do so and make an ASuW and ASW variant of the vessels.

Again...something we are just batting around. Clearly, as built, they are what they are.

adeptitus said:

Can you elaborate the reasons for Greek's rejection?

Also, what happened to the Zubr that was rejected by Greece?

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According to Greek naval officers who inspected it, it had serious problems with cracks !
I have no idea what happened with that one.

plawolf said:

I would expect the PLAN to play around with the technology and probably start building Zubr based test ships for purposes other than the traditional beach assault mission the Zubrs were designed for. So, imagine if they removed the troop carrying capacity and stuff some big AShMs in a Zubr hull and made a bigger, badder and faster Type 022 missile boat.

They could maybe develop an ASW variant since the speed and zero draft of the Zubrs would make them near immune to torpedoes. You may need to give such a variant a hanger and helipad and/or use another asset to spot for it on account of the noise from the Zubrs.

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Doesnt make much sense to build a hovercraft anti-ship/anti-submarine vessel. Too costly and little endurance for it. There is a reason no navy deploys them.

Most probably PLAN will base them in hainan and deploy them to the SCS/Taiwan vicinity if needed.