The Korean war

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bobjones2

Just Hatched
Registered Member
I don't think we should assume that "human wave" tactic is just bad doctrine, and therefore dismiss it. Sure it would be terrible if I was the hapless guy forced into doing it, but there probably are times when doing so is in the overall strategic interest. The real question is how much of this was used?

I think that a lot of people when they say "human wave" tactic, they just mean that China had a lot of people who moved up supplies by man power rather than using trucks. My understanding is that a bulk of the Chinese army at the time was comprised of people acting as human mules to carry supplies for the guy with the gun/grenades.
 
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RedMercury

Junior Member
The PVA logistics train consisted of a small number of trucks, which were limited to night operations, pack animals, and human porters. The emphasis was avoiding the UN air interdiction patrols, so movement at night was preferred.
 
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pla101prc

Senior Member
bobjones2 said:
I don't think we should assume that "human wave" tactic is just bad doctrine, and therefore dismiss it. Sure it would be terrible if I was the hapless guy forced into doing it, but there probably are times when doing so is in the overall strategic interest. The real question is how much of this was used?

I think that a lot of people when they say "human wave" tactic, they just mean that China had a lot of people who moved up supplies by man power rather than using trucks. My understanding is that a bulk of the Chinese army at the time was comprised of people acting as human mules to carry supplies for the guy with the gun/grenades.
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it'd be helpful if they can actually find photo evidence of human wave tactic being employed during the korean war. they prolly cant. human wave attack was used in Europe during WWII, and American civil war, by the end of WWII no professional army uses it anymore. and as the most experienced army at the time, the Chinese obviously wouldnt use it.
 
The_Zergling

The_Zergling

Junior Member
pla101prc said:
it'd be helpful if they can actually find photo evidence of human wave tactic being employed during the korean war. they prolly cant. human wave attack was used in Europe during WWII, and American civil war, by the end of WWII no professional army uses it anymore. and as the most experienced army at the time, the Chinese obviously wouldnt use it.
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I don't feel that experience would have necessarily affected whether or not the Chinese army would have used a certain tactic - seems that the thing that people consider when deciding strategy is whether or not something is effective or not.
 
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pla101prc

Senior Member
The_Zergling said:
I don't feel that experience would have necessarily affected whether or not the Chinese army would have used a certain tactic - seems that the thing that people consider when deciding strategy is whether or not something is effective or not.
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i dont think human wave has been an effective strategy since WWI though even the americans have used it at some point since then. but by WWII all professional armies should already have some kind of regulations as to how far apart each soldier should be from each other. where i serve we call it "gaggle f*ck". in the PLA the rule says each soldier has to be at least 3 or 5m away from the nearest guy or somethin like that. the only possible scenario where you might need something remotely similar to a human wave tactic during the korean war, is when you are trying to penetrate one point in the enemy's defence line and quickly get as many ppl through that point as possible before the enemy regains control and wheel them behind the others. (reference to Lin Biao's principles) other than that, its hardly imaginable that an army that "grew up" fighting guerilla warfare would resort to using human wave. hearsay simply isnt enough to convince me
 
The_Zergling

The_Zergling

Junior Member
pla101prc said:
i dont think human wave has been an effective strategy since WWI though even the americans have used it at some point since then. but by WWII all professional armies should already have some kind of regulations as to how far apart each soldier should be from each other. where i serve we call it "gaggle f*ck". in the PLA the rule says each soldier has to be at least 3 or 5m away from the nearest guy or somethin like that. the only possible scenario where you might need something remotely similar to a human wave tactic during the korean war, is when you are trying to penetrate one point in the enemy's defence line and quickly get as many ppl through that point as possible before the enemy regains control and wheel them behind the others. (reference to Lin Biao's principles) other than that, its hardly imaginable that an army that "grew up" fighting guerilla warfare would resort to using human wave. hearsay simply isnt enough to convince me
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I agree that if the PLA leadership decided to use human wave-like tactics, it must have been through much calculation, as indeed their history of guerrilla warfare would affect the way they were used to operating.

Despite experiences from WWI, militaries still used "suicidal" tactics when necessary, in WWII, such as in the Normandy landings where it was arguably one of the better military options.

I've always interpreted "human wave" as primarily a subjective description by those being attacked - seemingly unending enemy attacks would certainly compel a defender to feel that way, even if the tactic isn't actually being used.
 
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pla101prc

Senior Member
The_Zergling said:
I agree that if the PLA leadership decided to use human wave-like tactics, it must have been through much calculation, as indeed their history of guerrilla warfare would affect the way they were used to operating.

Despite experiences from WWI, militaries still used "suicidal" tactics when necessary, in WWII, such as in the Normandy landings where it was arguably one of the better military options.

I've always interpreted "human wave" as primarily a subjective description by those being attacked - seemingly unending enemy attacks would certainly compel a defender to feel that way, even if the tactic isn't actually being used.
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yeah i have said earlier somewhere in this thread that PVA mostly conduct night operations. and they do it by infiltrating enemy defence and then attack from all directions. they communicate by whistles and bugles. so it creates an illusion in the dark that they are "everywhere".

as for normandy, there is really no other choice, i mean your ppl have to come off the boat dont they? and that's kinda similar to my scenario as well, when you have to get a lot of ppl through a "point" as fast as possible, you tend to have a higher concentration of troops in a small area. but to suggest that the PVA would use this kind of stuff in a frontal assault is absurd
 
FriedRiceNSpice

FriedRiceNSpice

Captain
True human wave tactics have not been successful since WWI... you can see it in the Pacific portion of WWII, the Tet Offensive, and most recently the Iran-Iraq War. Mass, unsupported attacks are the exact type of tactics prepared positions are best suited for handling.

In some instances in which the UN forces had the initiative, I can see how human-wave like tactics may have been used in desperation due to the vast imbalance of artillery and air power assets between the two sides. However, most of these battles I am thinking off ended in lopsided UN victories of statements with huge casualties to the Chinese side. While the PVA were on the offensive and had operational initiative, they definitely did not use human-wave tactics.
 
asif iqbal

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
its pretty clear that Soviets trapped China into a dirty war against the Western powers, Mao thought that he would get heavy military equipment support and know how from USSR if he attacked UN forces this was a terrible miss calculation

China had alot of experience fighting Japanese on mainland so they used those tatics against UN forces very well at the cost of many human lives

US never showed any interest to cross Yalu River, China was just fooled by the Russians

But looking at North Korea today one has to question was it really worth it? millions of North Koreas have died due to starvation inside a police state where people are so brainwashed its like a zoo

As for China they also learnt that they cant trust North Koreans because North Korea abandoned China and turned to USSR, then when USSR collapse N. Korean looked at china for help again!
 
bladerunner

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Kim Il Sung was really in the Soviet camp and i betcha they would have been secretly annoyed at the NK's for starting the war, as they had unfinished business with the KMT and Taiwan.
Things might have been so different if it hadn't been for the Korean war. Decades ago I remember reading accounts of senior American officers who were with Chiang during WW2 werent overly complimentary of him, so some of those observations might have influenced the politicians, and relations might have become more warmer with CCP, instead of nearly three lost decades.
 
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