The Korean war

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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
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LMAO i wish my grandfather was still alive to tell you what sort of tactics they used to confuse the American troops, cmon you aint the only one here with relatives that fought that war.

You are laughing at my deceased uncle? Or my statement? Just asking.

And no I know I'm not the only person in this forum that has had relatives fight in any war...I never stated I did.

As a moderator I'm bowing out of this discussion before I get over heated.

bd popeye super moderator
 
Well I believe the Chinese intervention in Korea could be divided into two phases. The first phase consisted of when the PVA had complete surprise on the tactical, operational, and strategic levels. They had the UN forces completely offguard and complete initiative and control of the situation. Operations during this time were characteristic of Chinese guerilla tactics, involving infiltration attacks, night combat, envelopment, and psychological warfare tactics. PVA units would probe and infilitrate UN positions to determine platoon to company sized pockets which they could isolate and completely destroy during night attacks. These attacks were carried out at various points in the UN line, giving the impression that the Chinese were everywhere at once, while in reality the Chinese were specifically targeting certain, critical areas in the UN line and achieving local numerical superiority at the points. However, as the war dragged on and moved further south, the Chinese begin to lose that initiative. The UN forces also became much better prepared, dug in, and begin to change the way in which they positioned their forces. Also, the terrain in the south was less mountainous and more open than in the North, and allied air operations, especially recon operations became much more successful. After the UN retook Seoul, they enjoyed near total initiative in the drive back north. The Chinese and North Koreans were forced into a defensive, positional war where they were at a massive firepower deficit. Any large concentrations of PVA/KPA troops were subjected to intense air bombardment, so the only way the PVA/KPA could respond to allied breakthroughs was through mass concentration of troops at the point of the breakthrough. The only options available to the PVA to counterattack and retake lost ground was also through massing of troops at the point of engagement. However, once the war moved back into more mountainous terrain, and where the PVA were able to dig in and fortify as well as receive more artillery, they were able to hold back the UN forces in the same manner the UN had enjoyed earlier in the conflict- defense from prepared positions, control of the high ground, and ability to focus massive firepower at the point of breakthrough. Faced with those set of conditions, the UN forces attempted no major offensives for the last year of the war. In conclusion, yes human wave attacks did occur on the side of the PVA during the Korean War, but only during the most desperate part of the war during which the Chinese, overextended at a serious firepower deficit had no other means to hold back the UN counteroffensive.
 

vesicles

Colonel
They fought several pitched battles against the Japanese. it wasn't all hit and run.

But that is not what they exceled at.

If those people started on the other side of the valley under a full moon sure. But nights can be cloudy just like the day and block ambient light. Plus the final charge to get to the wire is not a WWI style walk across hell but a dash.

Nights on earth are never pitch black, full moon or not. And human eyes are sensitive enough to see in the dark. If you don't believe me, just ask yourself if you see shapes of all the furnitures in your house in the middle of the night with no lights. you may not see the details, but you can definitely pick out shapes. Especially when you spend a couple minutes to let your eyes get used to the darkness. You'll find that you can see A LOT in the "total" darkness. And that is enough out on the battlefield for you to spot a huge blob of people coming at you, especially when you have the high ground. AND don't forget the noise!! That's why night attacks usually involve small groups, not human waves.

Your assuming its dumb, one of the hardest things to do is control troops at night. Effective control under bad lighting requires a closer grouping. This grouping also allows the attacker to mass, and hopefully have the mass remaining to take the objective.

OK, you see the problem? Bad lighting --> closer grouping --> easy targets for machine guns. When you charge, you want to keep maximum amout of distance between soliders to minimize the target while maintaining formation. Yet, you are suggesting that closer grouping is a good thing? This is why I think the two (night attack and human wave) contradict each other.

And none of that has squat to do with how to get across the final 50-100yrds or so of swept ground. At some point no matter how careful you are, no matter how disciplined you claim to be you have to get up and make that sprint. Plus, if your force moving oh so carefully at night is spotted during the day by an OP or UN aircraft you either attack with what you have, or get the snot bombed out of you.

Can you think of any conventional tactic that does not involve that final puch across the final 50-100 yards? It is very hard to be invisible at that close distance for anyone, except perhaps Special Ops. The question we are asking is how you can even get to that final position, 50-100 yards away from the enemy line, before being blown up. A human wave at night canNOT help you any more than a human wave in daylight. I am NOT saying that human wave is dumb. It is a necessary tactic under certain circumstances. However, carefully planning a human wave at night in an attempt to minimize casualty is dumb since it won't.
 

zraver

Junior Member
VIP Professional
But that is not what they exceled at.

It is what the IJA excelled at, go back and re-read what I wrote

Nights on earth are never pitch black, full moon or not. And human eyes are sensitive enough to see in the dark. If you don't believe me, just ask yourself if you see shapes of all the furnitures in your house in the middle of the night with no lights. you may not see the details, but you can definitely pick out shapes. Especially when you spend a couple minutes to let your eyes get used to the darkness. You'll find that you can see A LOT in the "total" darkness.

A cloudy night in a combat zone might as well be pitch black, its effecitvely the same thing. The popping of flares to provide some sort of lighting means night vision is ruined every 30 seconds to a couple of minutes as one side lof the other pops a flare.


And that is enough out on the battlefield for you to spot a huge blob of people coming at you, especially when you have the high ground. AND don't forget the noise!! That's why night attacks usually involve small groups, not human waves.

Small groups won't have the mass to deal with the defenders, if your trying to over run a position you have to over run it and that requires mass. 15 men vs 15 men is an expensive way to wage a war. You win by putting 50 vs 15.

OK, you see the problem? Bad lighting --> closer grouping --> easy targets for machine guns. When you charge, you want to keep maximum amout of distance between soliders to minimize the target while maintaining formation. Yet, you are suggesting that closer grouping is a good thing? This is why I think the two (night attack and human wave) contradict each other.

the best grouping for facing a machine gun is of course to not be facing it. That is the natural and proper response. That response however does not advance national interests so you need discipline to make men act against their own self interests. The farther men are from the source or avatar of that national will and discipline the more likely they are to pursue their own self interests. Discipline is #1 before all other considerations.

A highly trained, well led group of people who formed the unit and trained together in peace time can probably keep discipline in a looser formation that half trained recruits begin sent forward to keep up the numbers. However as factors degrade the ability to maintain discipline come in to play, the formation must shrink. This is true for everyone one whether its the frontage being coverage by a tank company or the spacing between infantry advancing towards a point on the map.


However, even without the friction effects on command and discipline, at a certain point called the objective all space compresses. Say for example, your goal is a hill top MG nest/OP. And that it occupies 25m long line of earth. No matter how many men you send, at the end the front they are attacking is only 25m long.

Which brings up another couple of points, the closer you are, the less an MG has of a field of fire and the less likely it is to be supported by other assets.

Can you think of any conventional tactic that does not involve that final puch across the final 50-100 yards? It is very hard to be invisible at that close distance for anyone, except perhaps Special Ops. The question we are asking is how you can even get to that final position, 50-100 yards away from the enemy line, before being blown up.

That has never been my question or what I have been arguing at all.

A human wave at night canNOT help you any more than a human wave in daylight. I am NOT saying that human wave is dumb. It is a necessary tactic under certain circumstances. However, carefully planning a human wave at night in an attempt to minimize casualty is dumb since it won't.

At night, for the average unit,formations shrink to maintain control.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Well I believe the Chinese intervention in Korea could be divided into two phases. The first phase consisted of when the PVA had complete surprise on the tactical, operational, and strategic levels. They had the UN forces completely offguard and complete initiative and control of the situation. Operations during this time were characteristic of Chinese guerilla tactics, involving infiltration attacks, night combat, envelopment, and psychological warfare tactics. PVA units would probe and infilitrate UN positions to determine platoon to company sized pockets which they could isolate and completely destroy during night attacks. These attacks were carried out at various points in the UN line, giving the impression that the Chinese were everywhere at once, while in reality the Chinese were specifically targeting certain, critical areas in the UN line and achieving local numerical superiority at the points. However, as the war dragged on and moved further south, the Chinese begin to lose that initiative. The UN forces also became much better prepared, dug in, and begin to change the way in which they positioned their forces. Also, the terrain in the south was less mountainous and more open than in the North, and allied air operations, especially recon operations became much more successful. After the UN retook Seoul, they enjoyed near total initiative in the drive back north. The Chinese and North Koreans were forced into a defensive, positional war where they were at a massive firepower deficit. Any large concentrations of PVA/KPA troops were subjected to intense air bombardment, so the only way the PVA/KPA could respond to allied breakthroughs was through mass concentration of troops at the point of the breakthrough. The only options available to the PVA to counterattack and retake lost ground was also through massing of troops at the point of engagement. However, once the war moved back into more mountainous terrain, and where the PVA were able to dig in and fortify as well as receive more artillery, they were able to hold back the UN forces in the same manner the UN had enjoyed earlier in the conflict- defense from prepared positions, control of the high ground, and ability to focus massive firepower at the point of breakthrough. Faced with those set of conditions, the UN forces attempted no major offensives for the last year of the war. In conclusion, yes human wave attacks did occur on the side of the PVA during the Korean War, but only during the most desperate part of the war during which the Chinese, overextended at a serious firepower deficit had no other means to hold back the UN counteroffensive.

i'd say this is the most apt synopsis of the so called human wave tactics in Korea. the Chinese divide the war into 5 campaigns, first 3 they were on the offensive, the other 2 were defensive. the defensive warfare were the ones in which they suffered most casualties. there were a few counter offensives during i believe the 4th campaign that were intended to slow down the UN advance (this should be the desperation part that you were refering to), and the 5th campaign was a purely defensive one where the 38th GA stopped UN armoured divisions with infanry units, which earned them the title "long live the 38th GA".
 
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pla101prc

Senior Member
It is what the IJA excelled at, go back and re-read what I wrote



A cloudy night in a combat zone might as well be pitch black, its effecitvely the same thing. The popping of flares to provide some sort of lighting means night vision is ruined every 30 seconds to a couple of minutes as one side lof the other pops a flare.




Small groups won't have the mass to deal with the defenders, if your trying to over run a position you have to over run it and that requires mass. 15 men vs 15 men is an expensive way to wage a war. You win by putting 50 vs 15.



the best grouping for facing a machine gun is of course to not be facing it. That is the natural and proper response. That response however does not advance national interests so you need discipline to make men act against their own self interests. The farther men are from the source or avatar of that national will and discipline the more likely they are to pursue their own self interests. Discipline is #1 before all other considerations.

A highly trained, well led group of people who formed the unit and trained together in peace time can probably keep discipline in a looser formation that half trained recruits begin sent forward to keep up the numbers. However as factors degrade the ability to maintain discipline come in to play, the formation must shrink. This is true for everyone one whether its the frontage being coverage by a tank company or the spacing between infantry advancing towards a point on the map.


However, even without the friction effects on command and discipline, at a certain point called the objective all space compresses. Say for example, your goal is a hill top MG nest/OP. And that it occupies 25m long line of earth. No matter how many men you send, at the end the front they are attacking is only 25m long.

Which brings up another couple of points, the closer you are, the less an MG has of a field of fire and the less likely it is to be supported by other assets.



That has never been my question or what I have been arguing at all.



At night, for the average unit,formations shrink to maintain control.

your stuff is based on assumptions, read the stuff fried rice or whatever his name is wrote.
 
One more thing I would like to add-
due to UN air power, the PVA/KPA were never able to concentrate in large numbers for any extended period of time. The human-wave type attacks that occurred were mainly tactical responses to massed UN breakthroughs that broke through the more dispersed PVA front lines. When these such concentrations did develop, the PVA typically suffered huge losses to UN air and artillery bombardment.

In the initial phases of the war, PVA envelopment operations often gave the illusion of human-wave type attacks. The PVA would typically attack on two-three main axises, while smaller units would deploy in supporting positions, where they were known to create as much as noise as possible in order to disorient the defenders as well as to confuse them on the directions from which the main attacks while come. Meanwhile, supporting PVA units would set up on ambush positions cutting off all possible routes of escape.

Even UN/US accounts of the initial months of the Chinese intervention talk about the ability of PVA units to materialize out of nowhere on all sides and then completely annihilate the trapped units.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
One more thing I would like to add-
due to UN air power, the PVA/KPA were never able to concentrate in large numbers for any extended period of time. The human-wave type attacks that occurred were mainly tactical responses to massed UN breakthroughs that broke through the more dispersed PVA front lines. When these such concentrations did develop, the PVA typically suffered huge losses to UN air and artillery bombardment.

In the initial phases of the war, PVA envelopment operations often gave the illusion of human-wave type attacks. The PVA would typically attack on two-three main axises, while smaller units would deploy in supporting positions, where they were known to create as much as noise as possible in order to disorient the defenders as well as to confuse them on the directions from which the main attacks while come. Meanwhile, supporting PVA units would set up on ambush positions cutting off all possible routes of escape.

Even UN/US accounts of the initial months of the Chinese intervention talk about the ability of PVA units to materialize out of nowhere on all sides and then completely annihilate the trapped units.

lol i said those same thing like twice up there somewhere. PVA attack only at night time, and they communicate or disrupt the UN forces with whistles, bugles and drums and all that stuff, so it creates the illusion.
 

zraver

Junior Member
VIP Professional
your stuff is based on assumptions, read the stuff fried rice or whatever his name is wrote.

No, my read is based on the tactical challenges the Chinese faced- how to cover that last little bit of ground. You can't infiltrate into a base, at a certain point you have to get up and rush forward. Most armies would grind thier way forward using fire and cover. But that is slow, and slow means the defenders can call in artillery and air power.

FriedRiceNSpice is dealing with the operational situations that lead to such attacks having to be made at all.

I think your problem is you assume human wave attack means a bunch of screaming crazies about to be wiped out aka the Banzai Charge. But it doesn't, at least not necessarily. On a smaller scale there was a US unit that fixed bayonets and charged in Iraq, and carried the position despite the crappy US bayo-wire cutter- hatchet- Swiss army knife hang off the end of the gun-net
Any attack against a fixed point by large numbers of non-armored supported infantry that does not rely on a slower more methodical approach like movement and fire because of what ever reason is a human wave attack. For the Skinnies and taliban this might be a lack of tactical skill. For the WWI combatants it reflected a well thought out doctrine (that had reached the wrong conclusions), for the Japanese is was a way to win or die with honor and for the Chinese it was probably due as much to time constraints and the need to hug the Americans faster than the Americna artillery and air could get into play.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
No, my read is based on the tactical challenges the Chinese faced- how to cover that last little bit of ground. You can't infiltrate into a base, at a certain point you have to get up and rush forward. Most armies would grind thier way forward using fire and cover. But that is slow, and slow means the defenders can call in artillery and air power.

FriedRiceNSpice is dealing with the operational situations that lead to such attacks having to be made at all.

I think your problem is you assume human wave attack means a bunch of screaming crazies about to be wiped out aka the Banzai Charge. But it doesn't, at least not necessarily. On a smaller scale there was a US unit that fixed bayonets and charged in Iraq, and carried the position despite the crappy US bayo-wire cutter- hatchet- Swiss army knife hang off the end of the gun-net
Any attack against a fixed point by large numbers of non-armored supported infantry that does not rely on a slower more methodical approach like movement and fire because of what ever reason is a human wave attack. For the Skinnies and taliban this might be a lack of tactical skill. For the WWI combatants it reflected a well thought out doctrine (that had reached the wrong conclusions), for the Japanese is was a way to win or die with honor and for the Chinese it was probably due as much to time constraints and the need to hug the Americans faster than the Americna artillery and air could get into play.

look, i serve in the army, and if there is one thing i have learned it is that you dont gain advantage by throwing additional men into battle, you gain advantage by throwing additional firepower. and if i know that, the Chinese prolly knew that. so this is what a sane officer should know, you dont drive your men into enemy fire. if you can concentrate your firepower, and overwhelm the defenders at one point, which means you have an opening, you can throw your ppl in human wave style, you can even gaggle f*ck a lil if that speed things up, i already said that if you read what i wrote. i have never heard of one instance where you just charge at the enemy position with like a million ppl and somehow took that position. i think if we had an officer that actually ordered that kind of stuff on us he'd get a really good beat, but of course being the most professional army in the world we will never do that.
 
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