The Korean war

asif iqbal said:

China should never had joined the war everyone knows North Korean used China then turned to Soviet Union, North Korea used China while it could and then when China wasnt need they went off with Soviets, when in 1991 Soviets was gone North Korea come back to China when they realise they need aid and money.

Had China not interfered today North Korea would have been a economic powerhouse just like South Korea. Just look at the difference between North and South its not hard to see who won the war and which descision was better.

China has had most unfortunate history with so many bad decisions Mao think he could get weapons from Soviets if he fight US and establish military industry instead Stalin never delivered and China was trapped into a war it never had to fight.

If China never entered the korean war today 20 million would be living free life instead its like a human zoo North Koreans are most unfortunate people on planet earth

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Hi, I beg to differ, I think the only 2 errors that Mao made was the The Great Leap Forward & Cultural Revolution.

Without the Cultural Revolution, China could have been a Superpower by now if its economy were to open in the 70s after allying with the US. Its economics, military were all slowed down by Cultural Revolution.

hanqiang1011 said:

Mao did not punished General Peng when the latter came back from Korea. In fact, he was plunged during the Cultural Revolution which happened many many years after the Korean War. After General Peng came back from Korean, he was made a Marshall in 1955.

From Wikipedia: "In June 1959, he tried to tell Chairman Mao at the Lushan Conference that the Great Leap Forward was a dramatic mistake. This statement would later cost him his life during the Cultural Revolution. Neither Mao nor Peng wanted a split but once Mao initiated the break with Peng, the whole Politburo and the Central Committee were bound to support Mao. They all quarreled with Peng, with Lin Biao the leader.

He was disgraced in 1959, in part because of his criticisms of Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward that went beyond what Mao considered legitimate. Mao accepted that there had been mistakes, including the 'backyard furnaces', but still saw the process as generally positive. Mao had even suggested that Peng write a criticism - whether this was a trap or whether Peng went too far is moot. Definitely, Mao started treating him as an enemy. As a consequence, he was removed from all posts and placed under constant supervision and house arrest in Chengdu, Sichuan; Lin Biao took over the post of Minister of Defense. Peng was eventually exiled, and shunned for the next 16 years of house arrest."

He was cleared of all charges and reaffirmed his contributions to the Chinese Revolution in 1978.

Definately one of the best field commanders of the PLA.

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Peng Dehuai MUST be amongst the greatest generals at History books. He defeated Mc Arthur and this is a major achivement.

Pepe

actually Mc Arthur want to nuke China because he cannot held the PVA in Korea. He even ask 7-8 nuke... After that he got replcaement

Ahhh... the Korean War. I'm Korean so I always wanted to know the Chinese perspective on it. Once I dated a Chinese girl and her father once told me, "I want you to understand that we Chinese didn't invade Korea, because we had imperialist ambition. We went into North Korea to insure that United States wouldn't invade China to reinstante Kuomintang government."

Looking at this thread from the first post there appears to be some posters who don't understand the nuances involved in this war...

First, as to the question of "who started the war".... Technically speaking Kim Il Sung started the war. But the full story is rather complex. History seems to have been structured in such a way that Korea was headed towards this calamity. To understand the Korean War we must also discuss World War II and Korea's annexation by Japan. As United States started it's final assault against the Empire of Japan, the Russians dawdled on engaging the Imperial Japanese Army. As soon as it appeared that United States was about to steamroll into Japan, Russia steamrolled through the largely weakened Japanese forces in Manchuria and then Korea.

This was the beginning stages of the Cold War and the United States did not want to see Korea under Soviet control. Now, most Americans didn't have a clue where Korea was located and it's strategic significance in east asia. American officers would take out a National Geographic map of Korea and roughly "divide" the country in half on the 38th parallel and contacted the Soviets, essentially asking them to stop advancing at the 38th parallel. From the American point of view, this is pretty much similiar in the way Germany was divided amongst the allied powers.

After Japan surrenderened US and USSR started to quabble on how to best reunite this nation. United States wanted to decide the matter by popular vote and Soviet Union did not. Going beyond the "righteousness" of a system of government, southern part of Korea had more people than the north. If by going by head coutn, a government supported by the southern half would win in the same way a popular vote in Iraq today would give Shiites majority control. Soviet Union could not accept his and refused to hold democratic elections. (Same thing would essentially happen again during the Vietnam war, except this time it was the United States that refused.)

Now, the national division was completely arbitrary and unacceptable to the Korean people. Although Kim Il Sung started the war, it would be completely false to say that Syngman Rhee of South Korea was some kind of a dove. But the difference was that Kim Il Sung was able to receive advanced tanks and fighters from the Soviet Union while Syngman Rhee received no advanced weaponry from the United States. In fact, an American official was quoted around this time essentially stating that Korean peninsula was outside of American security interests. Declassified Kremlin records show Kim Il Sung (an officer in the Soviet Union and a big admirer of Joseph Stalin) beggin Stalin to give him the go-ahead to invade. Stalin gave him the permission.

Now some members of this thread claim that South Korea started the war. This was 1950 where military was largely undisciplined. Many shooting skirmishes occurred on the border. It makes absolutely no logical sense to any intelligent individual to think that South Korea would start a shooting war for numerous reasons. First, it was well known fact that the Northern military were composed of seasoned veterans of guerilla war against the Japanese as well as veterans of the Chinese civil war. Southern military on the otherhand consists of few junior officers of the now defunct Imperial Japanese army. Then there is also the fact that South simply had no tanks and no airforce. Secondly, if South engaged in a pre-emptive strike against the North, it is difficult to think that the North could have counter-attacked with such great success.

I think American policy makers automatically assumed that "Koreans" were insignificant threat to the superpower that America has become and further assumed that DPRK forces would flee the moment they encountered American soldiers. They did not. In fact, DPRK forces overran American soldiers just as they overran ROK forces. Here, I must emphasize that even the soldiers of the United States Army weren't given the necessary weapons to defend themselves let alone Korea. They had few anti-tank weapons which weren't successful during WWII and certainly wouldn't work against Soviet designed T-34 tanks. Initially the DPRK/Soviet pilots also showed superiority.

North Korea almost won the war, but allied forces were somehow able to keep Pusan from falling.

The rest of the story you probably know. But one of the most outrageous mistakes by American government was that not only did they under-estimate the North Koreans, they completely underestimated the People's Republic of China. As American soldiers reached the Yalu river, Mao Ze Dong was seriously concerned that American soldiers would soon cross the river and try to "democratize" China under Kuomintang leadership. China asked United States to refrain from coming close to the border. United States ignore this warning, probably because they didn't take military strength of China seriously just as they ignored North Korean military strength.

Chinese military was infamous for being poorly equipped with weapons. But in some ways it was better equipped than US/ROK forces. Although the Chinese had inferior small arms, they came prepared to fight in the winter time. United States were expecting a quick end to the Korean War and did not prepare for the winter. The Chinese forces would overwhelm allied forces and push them back all the way back down to the 38th parallel... exactly where the war started in the first place.

Today, everybody like to talk about how they "won" the war. The truth of the matter is, almost everyone lost. The biggest losers of this war were obviously, the Koreans, followed by the Americans, then by the Chinese.

Only real winners of this conflict was the Soviet Union and Japan.

Today in modern North Korea, their national museum that celebrate the heroes of this conflict hardly ever talk about the role of the Chinese Volunteer Army. This would go against their national communist ideology of Juche. Ironically, ROK and PRC would open diplomatic relations and would resume a relationship that is pretty much reminiscent of the peaceful Sino-Korean relationship during Ming-Josun era.

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I can only assume that it has to do with some sort of nostalgia about how China used to be...

Good post, but leave the flaming and propaganda out of it
Gollevainen
Super Mod

bobjones2 said:

Today, everybody like to talk about how they "won" the war. The truth of the matter is, almost everyone lost. The biggest losers of this war were obviously, the Koreans, followed by the Americans, then by the Chinese.

Only real winners of this conflict was the Soviet Union and Japan.

Today in modern North Korea, their national museum that celebrate the heroes of this conflict hardly ever talk about the role of the Chinese Volunteer Army. This would go against their national communist ideology of Juche. Ironically, ROK and PRC would open diplomatic relations and would resume a relationship that is pretty much reminiscent of the peaceful Sino-Korean relationship during Ming-Josun era.

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Great post overall, but I have a somewhat different interpretation regarding winners and losers of the war. The Korean people lost, as did the Americans, Soviets, and Chinese, and the winners were Kim Il-Sung and Syngman Rhee. I'd argue that the Soviets lost big as well, because on one hand the Korean War "confirmed" US suspicions about the aggressiveness of Stalin and the necessity for NSC68 and rollback, and at the same time they also seemed weak in the eyes of East Asia because ultimately China was the Communist State that stepped in to fight the United States.

I'd also add Chiang-Kai Shek to the list of winners - it seems quite likely that if the Korean War hadn't broken out, the CCP would have taken over Taiwan.

I think you really don't need to debate about why should/shouldn't China intervene Korea.

1. UN intervene KW first, so in this round (round 2) the opposite has to do something.
2. Every dog has its own telephone pole. Consider Cuba in 60s'.

Combine these two, even USSR didn't promise support(in fact in the first offensives PVA still have old weapons), China will intervene.

Zergling, that's a good point, I forget how the Taiwanese figures into the equation sometimes.

Actually Chiang Kai Shek offered to send Taiwanese troops to Korea during the Korean war, but United States refused the offer, as US wanted to avoid WWIII. But secretively, Taiwan sent intelligence officers who gave assistance to allied forces in translating captured Chinese documents.

I guess you can say Kim Il Sung and Synman Rhee "won" in the sense that they were war time leaders and people's support for them were strengthened. Although, I'm not really sure about this either. Kilm Il Sung lost all the infrasture that the Japanese built in North Korea to invade China. South Korea was also a mess and Syngman Rhee had a hardtime trying to build the foundation of South Korean civil society.

I would say Soviets most defintely are the greaest winner, because the Soviets made United States bleed at China's expense. What's more, this was the first war in a long time that United States didn't win---the Soviets succeeded in showing "revolutionary comrades" around the world that "resistance against Imperialists" was possible. This result cost Soviets couple tanks and couple planes, but the Chinese lost many lives. The ideological conflict between US and USSR was going to happen anyway.

The worst part of this debacle was that the war ended in exactly the same place where the war began. With better diplomacy, a war between United States and China could have been avoided... But I suppose you are right about one thing. If China and US agreed to the matter, then China probably would have succeeded in taking over Taiwan, so I guess modern Taiwanese are better off.

But in the end, Korea is much more important to China's security interest than Taiwan. Historically, China-Korean alliance was a big factor in keeping the Mongols/Jurchens/Japanese in check. Formosa in Dutch hands, really didn't threaten mainland China... From the Mao Ze Dong's point of view, if United States had aggressive intentions towards mainland China, then his decision to go to war in Korea and let Taiwan be... this was the correct decision. Although, personally, I think Mao Ze Dong miscalculated due to his ideology. United States in 1950 was sick of wars and was not in the mood to support Chiang Kai Shek steamroll into China. The fact that United States didn't provide Korea with any tanks and airforce should have been proof enough, but in the end Mao was a communist who fought hard to unify China, and the very thought of losing it... I guess that's the decision he made. The worst part of all this, is that the People's Republic of China today is not really communist anymore. Just like the Vietnam war, in hindsight, both were stupid wars that should not have happened.

I wrote some things before that the supermod deleted out. I don't think I said anything to inflammatory, but I'm not chinese and I am a guest of sinodefence so I'll abide by the standard of this forum. However, I rarely see Chinese people discuss this war, let alone make the claim that this war could have been avoided. At best, I only see people rationalizing China's involvement as a way to defend China from US aggression.

One important point that I want to stress to Chinese readers is that this war also have a heavy cost in terms of Korean perception of the Chinese, which is rarely talked about by the Chinese. Historically, Korea was a vassel country of China. In fact, when the Ming dynasty fell and Qing dynasty took over, Josun intellectual elites claimed that Korea was now the only civilization that was preserving Chinese culture. Modern day Koreans are suspicious of China's imperialistic ambitions. A lot of Chinese young people are just as jingoistic as Korean young people. Except the difference is that the Chinese see themselves as someone who had glorious past and is seeking to restore that greatness. That in itself is ok, but sometimes that might lead people to assume that China is looking to establish a new vessel relationship with Korea.

In looking back, PRC has chosen the wrong side in terms of "winning the hearts and minds" of Koreans. Two main reasons: 1: Population of South Korea is much larger than population of North Korea. 2: North Korea by its national ideology is unwilling to tell their people that China "saved them". The net result is that for most Koreans, China is seen as a meddler. You can say the same thing about the United States, but from the Korean point of view, only the North Koreans will see United States as meddlers. And since the Kim Il Sung regime is so horrible, it's quite possible that in the future, the people of North Korea could be even more pro-America than South Korea.

Economics have driven both countries to what I believe to be the "natural" order of things--which is to say a peaceful Sino-Korean relations. But there are still a lot of work that needs to be done. If Korea ever unifies, the remaining government certainly won't be communist. Old communist Chinese people might still favor DPRK and think that they are important buffer against United States. This really is a foolish way of looking at things. There are a lot of suspicians amongst Koreans that the Chinese are the greatest impediment to Korean unification. If Koreans continue to see things in that light, and when Korea gets unified, the border between Korea and China could become heavily militarized--with US presence. To prevent this from occurring, China must have a strong active diplomatic relations with South Korea.

this is how i define the winner-loser situation:
NKorea vs SKorea: NKorea lost. it failed to take over SKorea, which was the goal
NKorea vs USA: NKorea lost...obvious reasons. inchon landing and all that. by the time China entered DPRK lost most of its military strength.
PRC vs USA: PRC won, PVA entered the war when the US already reached the Yalu river, the war ended at the 38th parallel...forced the single longest American retreat in its military history.
PRC lost in the sense that it didnt take Taiwan back. but won in the sense that this was the first time they independently fought off foreign powers...led by the US.
the US won in the sense that it thwarted communist expansion.
overall the war started at the 38th parallel and ended at the 38th parallel. so no winners.

Continuing from the other thread...

The Chinese were not using wave tactics during the war against the Japanese and during the civil war against the nationalist forces and were instead employing among others guerilla warfare strategy with great effect. Very likely, similar strategies beside others were also used during the Korean war and so it's not like they don't have any good strategy as some would like to make it seem to be.

Quickie said:

Continuing from the other thread...

The Chinese were not using wave tactics during the war against the Japanese and during the civil war against the nationalist forces and were instead employing among others guerilla warfare strategy with great effect. Very likely, similar strategies beside others were also used during the Korean war and so it's not like they don't have any good strategy as some would like to make it seem to be.

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the guerilla warfare were employed when the red army was weak. later on it turned into "movement" warfare and war of annihilation. if the Chinese used human wave then i cannot imagine them being able to push the UN forces from the Yalu river all the way back to the 37th parallel. the most frequently used tactic is sending small contingents behind the enemy line and cut off their way back. they call it "mini wars of annihilation" since they dont expect to take out a whole division evey single time like they did during the civil war. remember the Chinese fought a few KMT divisions armed and trained by either the american standard or the german standard (which is better in my opinion) and they didnt have to use human wave tactic as it is described. and like i said since PLA conduct offensive at night its really impossible to see "waves" comin at you. also human wave tactic as we know it would really render night operations meaningless...the whole point of attacking at night is so that the enemy cant hit you as easily. there are so many logical fallacies in the claim of human wave tactic that it really oughtta be reassessed.