The Kashmir conflict 2025.

Neurosmith

Junior Member
Registered Member
Completely agree. The Rafale and CE are closely enough matched that the rest of the network resulted in those differences becoming negligible. If IAF flew CE and PAF flew Rafales, PAF would still have won.

Yep... GCAP is the trap. Indian aerospace would be out of the fight for another generation if they pick the GCAP route but their insecurity and pride in possessing "top of the line" weapons even if foreign will mean they pick GCAP.

AMCA would take them another 15 years to complete to LRIP give or take 5 and another 15 years to complete orders for. By then Chinese 7th gen would have a decent chance at being in prototyping. They will never pick AMCA as a focus of resources. It'll be one more of the pandering line for domestic MIC while pouring the lion share of resources into buying 5x overpriced foreign warplanes.

GCAP wouldn't be so controversial of an investment if the consortium that is tasked with developing it had a track record of developing and manufacturing multiple aviation projects of the "high-end" tier. Only BAe and Leonardo have experience with this sort of thing (Eurofighter), but even with that factored in, sharing the development/R&D with Mitsubishi (and potentially HAL) adds a new level of complexity to the entire project. In that regard, France made the correct decision to pull out of the Eurofighter program in its early phase and proceed with its own in-house project that ultimately became the Rafale.

I actually do think that AMCA should be the main focus of the IAF. It is the only project that won't face the prospect of near-term obsolescence when it enters service according to its planned timeline. It may be a tough road ahead but one that the IAF and HAL should take given the valuable experience that the project offers even in the eventuality of failure. They could really give the project a boost if they would hold off on purchasing off-the-shelf foreign airframes and reappropriate the funds to the AMCA development team instead.
 

mack8

Junior Member

7th May air combat timeline by @Global Defence Agency

00:20am
At 12:10pm Indian Air Force initiated the first wave of combat takeoffs of Rafale, Su-30 MKI, Mig-29, and Mirage 2000 starting with aircraft groups from the northern and central attack axes. This marked the official launch of the large-scale air campaign codenamed “Operation Sindhoor”.

00:12am At 12:12pm Pakistan Air Force (PAF) detected unusual activity by the Indian Air Force and initiated combat readiness. This reflects the high efficiency of Pakistan’s early warning system as it detected the threat within just 2 minutes of the Indian aircraft taking off.

00:23am At 12:23pm fighter jets of Pakistan Airforce mainly JF-17 Thunder and J-10CE began taking off one by one. The time from detection to actual response was less then 11 minutes.

00:30am At 12:30pm Indian airforce completed the takeoff of all its strike groups. At this point approximately 72 Indian fighter jets including 14 Rafale fighter jets were airborne to participate in the operation and divided into four attack formations.
View attachment 152515

00:37am At 12:37 All 42 combat aircraft of Pakistan Air Force were airborne and formed a defensive formation with AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning and Control) aircraft providing aerial intelligence support from the rear. At this point two sides were locked in a standoff near the border with a force ratio of 42 (PAF) to 72 (IAF).
View attachment 152516

00:40am Without crossing the border the IAF began launching long-range air-to-surface missiles at predetermined civillian targets inside Pakistan located just outside the defense zone.
View attachment 152517

00:45am At 12:45pm PAF successfully locked all Indian aircraft that launched air-to-ground munitions using electromagnetic signatures. The Air Chief of PAF Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmad Babar Sidhu at forward command issued a key directive, upgrading the rules of engagement from “deterrent standoff” to “engage and shoot down hostile aircraft.”

00:50am01:10am J-10CE & Jf-17 Thunder fighter jets of Pakistan Airforce began launching PL-15E long-range air-to-air missiles at the marked Indian jets.
According to intercepted communications from the Indian “Godzilla” formation (Rafale squadron),
Godzilla -3 was shot down.
Godzilla -4 reported a mid-air explosion.

01:15am At the peak of the engagement Pakistan shot down a total of 5 Indian fighter jets and a MALE UAV within approximately 25 minutes. At the same time PAF maintained disciplined and selective strikes targeting only those Indian aircraft that had launched air-to-ground weapons.
View attachment 152518

01:30am – 02:00am After losing 5+1 aircraft Indian Air Force retreated from the combat zone and fighter jets of Pakistan Air Force also started returning to base. The entire aerial battle lasted around 2 hours the initial takeoffs to landing of the last aircraft.
Great summary. Again is it to be understood that the silhouettes accurately represent every aircraft involved in the battle? So there were no F-16s involved just JF-17s and J-10? On the IAF side that northern group is weird, is composed of all the types involved including one each Mirage-2000 and MiG-29, unless it wasn't the case and the MiG and Mirage losses are from the formation behind it?
 
I'd say the actual fracturing of Yugoslavia only needed a small push at most.
Slovenia seceding was fairly undramatic.
Slovenia and Croatia seceded long before any open foreign involvement. At that point, only Germany (rather ironically) recognized the legitimacy of the seceded republics. Open US/NATO involvement only occurred after Bosnia and Macedonia seceded as well (though the Serbs didn't really care about Macedonia 's secession either). Of course, nobody knows what the CIA was doing throughout the entire ordeal.
 

phrozenflame

Junior Member
Registered Member
Im bit surprised by su-57 suggestions. Its avionics at best may be marginally better than J-10 tech wise, if Su-57 is using Chinese components in the radar, sure Su-57 can bruteforce through more power. Otherwise, i highly doubt they will have avionics superior than Chinese or the West. I personally consider the avionics food chain to be: Top: US and China 2. Europe 3. Russia.

Su-58 would definitely be harder to track and we wont get 180km snipes but by the time Indians get it, Pakistan may just get newer AWACS to address the problem. Furthermore, J-35, which is arguably the stealthiest of the 5th gens will see first, shoot first.

We have not seen Su-57 doing any real penetrating roles in Ukraine.

Su-57 purchase will be just another sports car purchase, they dont have an overall system in place, they have many small systems. It wont solve the fundamental problem: Stage 1 - there is a problem.

Right now in their lala land, they absolutely smashed it, why change when nothing is broken :D.
 

phrozenflame

Junior Member
Registered Member
Attention: The conventional war may be over. But the separatist war is just beginning.

Baloch population is very very low relative to rest of the country with very low density. There is 0 chance of separation. That is however the red herring.

The real objective is to keep an (1) ongoing low intensity conflict. (2) Disrupt CPEC (3) Send a message to China which they have by specifically targeting Chinese citizens.

Pakistan had pretty much taken care of the insurgency until the rise of CPEC and US withdrawal.

One must be really naive to think if all these issues are not interconnected and relative.

The western insurgency is a direct fight against Pakistan and a proxy fight against China.

China has practically two solid wings and regional allies. Russia, and Pakistan. Both are being forced into quagmires.

Now people will say China is not doing anything, i think it is in the background, just not in our faces.

Everyone is playing the game and its somewhat in equilibrium.
 

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
Im bit surprised by su-57 suggestions. Its avionics at best may be marginally better than J-10 tech wise, if Su-57 is using Chinese components in the radar, sure Su-57 can bruteforce through more power. Otherwise, i highly doubt they will have avionics superior than Chinese or the West. I personally consider the avionics food chain to be: Top: US and China 2. Europe 3. Russia.
Ah, simple. It's the best thing on open market at the moment.

Hypothetical European 5th gen fighter could, potentially, be made better than post-collapse Russian one(though European countries weren't terribly successful in achieving that since basically ww2).
And since there's none, Eu countries simply don't have a comparable architecture. What's the point comparing amplifiers or engine blades, when one aircraft is LO, is built on integral architecture with data fusion.

GCAP will be, yes. One bright and sunny day 10 years later.

For now, India already bought a french supercar based on prestige and reputation.
 
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AndrewJ

Junior Member
Registered Member
The French guy is indeed a professional coper. It's very difficult to debate with him. He insists that so many PL-15 missiles w/ AEW&C planes could only shoot down one Rafale w/o AEW&C, which already proves Rafale's superiority. May people in this thread can help? :rolleyes:





Seems dominique deleted some of his tweets just now. :cool:
 
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