The Civil War in Libya

S

Schumacher

Senior Member
Benghazians celebrating their new found 'freedom of expression'.

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Libya's leadership has apologised after armed men smashed the graves of British and Italian soldiers killed during World War II.

Amateur video footage of the attack, posted on social networking site Facebook, showed men casually kicking over headstones in a war cemetery and using sledgehammers to smash a metal and stone cross.

One man can be heard saying: "This is a grave of a Christian," as he uprooted a stone headstone from the ground.
Another voice in the footage says of the people buried in the cemetery: "These are dogs".

The attack happened in the eastern city of Benghazi, near where British and Commonwealth troops fought heavy battles against German and Italian forces during the 1939-45 war...........................................................
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
Schumacher said:
Benghazians celebrating their new found 'freedom of expression'.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Libya's leadership has apologised after armed men smashed the graves of British and Italian soldiers killed during World War II.

Amateur video footage of the attack, posted on social networking site Facebook, showed men casually kicking over headstones in a war cemetery and using sledgehammers to smash a metal and stone cross.

One man can be heard saying: "This is a grave of a Christian," as he uprooted a stone headstone from the ground.
Another voice in the footage says of the people buried in the cemetery: "These are dogs".

The attack happened in the eastern city of Benghazi, near where British and Commonwealth troops fought heavy battles against German and Italian forces during the 1939-45 war...........................................................
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I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm a little superstitious when it comes to desecration of someone's grave. Don't those guys afraid of bad luck in the future?
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Some reports suggest that the attack on the graves was in 'retaliation' to the burning of the Koran by US troops in Afghanistan.

I don't care what your motivations are, when someone is dead, they are dead, there is absolutely no excuse to go desecrating someone's grave. It is pathetic and cowedly and petty. The people who done this are nothing but base criminals.

With insurgents, you can at the very least respect their courage and devotion, with these guys, the only thing you can feel towards them is contempt.
 
Kurt

Kurt

Junior Member
Libya was a typical Arab state with foreign workers that kept the natives as a tribal-connection fed military reserve asset. The insurgency started from the region that was the least fed and the most beaten by the tribal security forces. For sure the disenfranchised old elites of these cities (not tribes) did play an important role because all good revolutions are organized.
The high development of Lybia was in a way compareable to opium in the Marxist sense. For this reason all ambitious Arabs in the largely oil exporting countries are outspoken gouvernment critics because the trickle down wealth creates a degenerate society of bootlikers that in the case of Saudi Arabia couldn't even be convinced to work just a little bit maybe as taxi drivers. It was utterly depressing to be an ambitious Arab because you were simply caged and got nowhere. The situation without oil was slightly different worse because it meant outright robbery of all hard work and aspirations according to the lack of tribute and connections to the ruling group.
To summarize it, Arabia was a dreadful place and the revolutions made it possible to distribute might and wealth on more groups. Naturally, there will be struggle, but the djinn is out of the bottle and the youth is willing to press their ability to fulfill their aspirations. By contrast China currently is the kind of country that many Arabs adore because in China for example the different factions within the ruling party cooperate and share. At the same time the imprisonments, torture, European exile and contact has shaped many of the new influential figures to press the dignity of the human in order to protect against the former racket's methods. Islam has been reinterpreted as part of the inward look of the Muslims in order to find solutions to their problems and offers a true possibility to go beyond old tribal petty-conflicts. Turkey is the lighttower that forms and shapes these Arabian visions best because of their government, economic boom, religion and culture. That's what the revolutions are all about, becoming Turkey and if you need Western arms and soldiers, so be it, but the Arabs use it for their own goals plus likely negotiated some kind of agreement in exchange for the support of their goal. So they harnessed NATO and not the other way round.
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
Kurt said:
Libya was a typical Arab state with foreign workers that kept the natives as a tribal-connection fed military reserve asset. The insurgency started from the region that was the least fed and the most beaten by the tribal security forces. For sure the disenfranchised old elites of these cities (not tribes) did play an important role because all good revolutions are organized.
The high development of Lybia was in a way compareable to opium in the Marxist sense. For this reason all ambitious Arabs in the largely oil exporting countries are outspoken gouvernment critics because the trickle down wealth creates a degenerate society of bootlikers that in the case of Saudi Arabia couldn't even be convinced to work just a little bit maybe as taxi drivers. It was utterly depressing to be an ambitious Arab because you were simply caged and got nowhere. The situation without oil was slightly different worse because it meant outright robbery of all hard work and aspirations according to the lack of tribute and connections to the ruling group.
To summarize it, Arabia was a dreadful place and the revolutions made it possible to distribute might and wealth on more groups. Naturally, there will be struggle, but the djinn is out of the bottle and the youth is willing to press their ability to fulfill their aspirations. By contrast China currently is the kind of country that many Arabs adore because in China for example the different factions within the ruling party cooperate and share. At the same time the imprisonments, torture, European exile and contact has shaped many of the new influential figures to press the dignity of the human in order to protect against the former racket's methods. Islam has been reinterpreted as part of the inward look of the Muslims in order to find solutions to their problems and offers a true possibility to go beyond old tribal petty-conflicts. Turkey is the lighttower that forms and shapes these Arabian visions best because of their government, economic boom, religion and culture. That's what the revolutions are all about, becoming Turkey and if you need Western arms and soldiers, so be it, but the Arabs use it for their own goals plus likely negotiated some kind of agreement in exchange for the support of their goal. So they harnessed NATO and not the other way round.
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Although Turkey is a member of NATO, yet they are still having a hard time getting in the EU club despite their economy is better than any of the Balkan states combine.
 
Kurt

Kurt

Junior Member
I know that Turkey does have a hard time joining. The problem is Islamophobia. Turkey has been the longest attached country to the EU, but the seculars who ruled that country weren't able to achieve it and the Islamic ruling party now had set Europe as their big goal in order to turn Turkey into a true democracy and not a military appendix. Problem is that Europe's Christian democrats have problems accepting Muslim democrats. Don't ask me why. For these people the boundary of Europe is somewhere west of Ukraine and all east is Asia. Yes, they are a very important component of most European democracies and the are often the less worse choice compared to the nationalists that would eliminate the Islamic footprint in Europe. Part of their argument, shared by a large part of the population, is that Islam has no historical roots in Europe (don't try to argue with them about European history, they have a unshakeable brief education through Bild&Sun and the movies). On the other hand the Islamic party in Turkey are possibly not the most democratic guys, but what would you expect in a country with so frequent military take-overs? The nail in Islamic EU membership is the dire situation of Christians in Muslim countries. In Turkey the Christians face a number of religion related unequal rights for example and social inequality as well as death for converts from Islam to Christianity (while in Europe converts to islam can continue to live their live, but might face some social problems if pushing their religious identity signs in public). That's part of the larger plight of Christians in Muslim lands. The important side of the Turkish Islamic democrats is how they transformed the state, the society, boosted the economy and how they reached out to their Muslim brothers after Europe clearly gave them not a fair chance.
 
asif iqbal

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Kurt said:
I know that Turkey does have a hard time joining. The problem is Islamophobia. Turkey has been the longest attached country to the EU, but the seculars who ruled that country weren't able to achieve it and the Islamic ruling party now had set Europe as their big goal in order to turn Turkey into a true democracy and not a military appendix. Problem is that Europe's Christian democrats have problems accepting Muslim democrats. Don't ask me why. For these people the boundary of Europe is somewhere west of Ukraine and all east is Asia. Yes, they are a very important component of most European democracies and the are often the less worse choice compared to the nationalists that would eliminate the Islamic footprint in Europe. Part of their argument, shared by a large part of the population, is that Islam has no historical roots in Europe (don't try to argue with them about European history, they have a unshakeable brief education through Bild&Sun and the movies). On the other hand the Islamic party in Turkey are possibly not the most democratic guys, but what would you expect in a country with so frequent military take-overs? The nail in Islamic EU membership is the dire situation of Christians in Muslim countries. In Turkey the Christians face a number of religion related unequal rights for example and social inequality as well as death for converts from Islam to Christianity (while in Europe converts to islam can continue to live their live, but might face some social problems if pushing their religious identity signs in public). That's part of the larger plight of Christians in Muslim lands. The important side of the Turkish Islamic democrats is how they transformed the state, the society, boosted the economy and how they reached out to their Muslim brothers after Europe clearly gave them not a fair chance.
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for centurys the Europeans lived under the threat of the once powerful Ottoman Empire, at their doorstep once amassed massive Turkish armys and they did suceed, the memorys are still fresh in the minds of the Europeans

also Turkeys is a powerful country, it has military service, and can call in 1 million men for war,and historically in wars from Korea (for which they were granted Nato membership) todays Afghanistan has shown to be true professional soldiers

in addition EU is big muslim majority country, EU is already worried about muslims in Europe, if Turkey joins then muslims population will go from around 3% to in EU to 15% in EU, that is something that EU cant have

for Turkey they dont give 2 hoots about EU, they no longer care about joing EU, cus when they wanted to join, when it was needed and when they asked for it they didnt get it, now Turkey is expanding economy 6-7% and has many technologys and good things it can give Europe during recession

in entire muslim world everyone has respect for Turkey, cus they are the most developed muslims nation, recently they send first Turkish airlines to Somalia and help many muslim nations, on Eastern Turkey many factorys are making goods for Iraq and Iran, thery support projects in infrastructure in all arab nations

today Turkey no longer needs EU, EU needs Turkey, when France passed resolution to recognise Armenian Genocide it was Turkey who put sanctions on French, Turkish threaten to ban imports and kick French backside in trade if they made such a mistake, this is a reverse from a few years ago when EU used to put sanctions on Eastern nations

times have changed and they are going to change even more, East is rising, you can say Turkey is the China of this region
 
Kurt

Kurt

Junior Member
asif iqbal said:
for centurys the Europeans lived under the threat of the once powerful Ottoman Empire, at their doorstep once amassed massive Turkish armys and they did suceed, the memorys are still fresh in the minds of the Europeans

also Turkeys is a powerful country, it has military service, and can call in 1 million men for war,and historically in wars from Korea (for which they were granted Nato membership) todays Afghanistan has shown to be true professional soldiers

in addition EU is big muslim majority country, EU is already worried about muslims in Europe, if Turkey joins then muslims population will go from around 3% to in EU to 15% in EU, that is something that EU cant have

for Turkey they dont give 2 hoots about EU, they no longer care about joing EU, cus when they wanted to join, when it was needed and when they asked for it they didnt get it, now Turkey is expanding economy 6-7% and has many technologys and good things it can give Europe during recession

in entire muslim world everyone has respect for Turkey, cus they are the most developed muslims nation, recently they send first Turkish airlines to Somalia and help many muslim nations, on Eastern Turkey many factorys are making goods for Iraq and Iran, thery support projects in infrastructure in all arab nations

today Turkey no longer needs EU, EU needs Turkey, when France passed resolution to recognise Armenian Genocide it was Turkey who put sanctions on French, Turkish threaten to ban imports and kick French backside in trade if they made such a mistake, this is a reverse from a few years ago when EU used to put sanctions on Eastern nations

times have changed and they are going to change even more, East is rising, you can say Turkey is the China of this region
Click to expand...

Only small Balkan nations have a memory of past Ottoman power. The sick man of the Bosporus is the more present picture and the Turkish army is not considered a serious threat. Turkey is considered a weak country by European standards and a strong country by Middle Eastern standards. Greece on her own is considered enough to counterbalance any Turkish aspirations and that's at the core of the problem. Greece has been defined as Europe's birthplace in reference to the ancient Greeks. Culturally there's little difference between Greece and Turkey except for religion. That makes their struggle so bitter because they are so hard to distinguish. Cyprus is a prime example how many European regulations were bent or broken in order to integrate some Greeks and disintegrate some Turks. It's the Western World eminating from the Greek struggle against Persia and Christian club narrative that shapes widespread prejudices against Turkey while for Russia, theirs is the old problem of separating Europe and Asia. Similar to Greece and Turkey no clearcut boundary exists, so minor differences get overemphasized to serve political prejudices of a great part of the populations.

I agree that Turkey can build her own clout without the EU, but I consider it a pity that they aren't being offered a fair deal because Turkey has a very important softpower in the Islamic and Turkish Central Asian world. I don't agree that the Islamic world has the capability to achieve yet an economic clout that would make it an equal to Europe or China. The problem is the systemic weakness of social cooperation that allows and allowed undemocratic structures to rule these countries. As long as tribal afiliation and a long list of past wrongs count so much only a few bright lighthouses like Turkey, Egypt and Tunisia will exist.
 
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D

delft

Brigadier
We are getting away from Libya a little. But the EU will not be getting more members, perhaps never, because of the way the Euro zone was organized, in the interest of Germany and a little of France and, accidentally, The Netherlands and to the detriment of Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy. It might well be that Greece leaves the Union and that Turkey is the only country capable of helping her. In that case I hope they find a compromise for Cyprus. As the strongest country Turkey can afford to be generous and so keep Israel out of Cyprus. There is also of course the matter of Syria. Everything is connected with everything so an agreeable outcome cannot be assumed. Indeed disaster seems more likely.
 
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