The Civil War in Libya
- Thread starter solarz
- Start date
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
Kurt, you give only personal opionions based on mis-conceptions, with no knowledge of facts or ur simply ignoring them
Pakistans elite Commando unit known as the SGG unit is not very highly educated (compared to Western standards) nor is it using english as its first langauge, yet its boasts a formidale track record, elite members of this unit then go onto the ISI which have been running cicrles around the CIA for decades
SSG units routinely engaged Soviet Airborne troops in Afghanistan during 1980s war, they also directly engaged and fought against Soviets special forces, the Spetsnaz, undr civilian disguise, maybe you ought to read about the Afghan war
They were dropped behind enemy lines during the Bosnian war and supplied Baktar Shiken ATGM to Bosnian muslims
During Kargil war just a handful of SSG units held down entire India military for 4 weeks, it was only after France supplied targeting pods to Indian Mirages that they managed to use high altitutde bombing in the Kargil war
ex-SSG commandos are employed by the rich Arab country to guard Royal Familys because of their reputation, in Saudi Arabia ex-SSG members also provide training to Saudi special forces, who have access to Western training
Pakistan army won gold medal out of 86 teams in the Cambrian Patrol which is a international military patrolling exercise covers 37km in 48hours
in addition Turkish special forcs and Pakistani special forces routinely train together, both train with Navy Seals
and it was "uneducated" Turkish army that saved Americans 8ths army and 2nd Division from destruction from a Chinese attack, the result of which was the vote for Turkey to join Nato membership in 1952, infact it was because of the Turkish soldiers in Korea why Turkey is even in Nato today
and if u are serving in Nato then it goes to show how "educated" training they are giving you, if u dont know any of the above facts
you say "The Pakistani nuclear armament is a sign of weakness ", well even Indian forces had reached FOB (forward operating bases) in 1999 and 2002 stand off, the call of the attack was just waiting for a phone to come, but Indian high command never made the call, the reason, because of Pakistans nuclear arsenal and its ballistic missiles, we averted war twice because of nukes. so its our greatest strenght
during the 6 day war Pakistan Air force sent its pilots to engage Israeli Air force, they shot down 10 aircraft without a single loss, our Air Marshall at the time was Nur Khan, and this prompted Ezer Weizman, who was also the Commander of the Israeli Air Force and the Minister of Defense of Israel, wrote in his autobiography that "He was a formidable fellow and I was glad that he was Pakistani and not Egyptian"
Pakistans military track record is second to none, from land to air, they have been fighting and winning wars since 1947
Pakistans elite Commando unit known as the SGG unit is not very highly educated (compared to Western standards) nor is it using english as its first langauge, yet its boasts a formidale track record, elite members of this unit then go onto the ISI which have been running cicrles around the CIA for decades
SSG units routinely engaged Soviet Airborne troops in Afghanistan during 1980s war, they also directly engaged and fought against Soviets special forces, the Spetsnaz, undr civilian disguise, maybe you ought to read about the Afghan war
They were dropped behind enemy lines during the Bosnian war and supplied Baktar Shiken ATGM to Bosnian muslims
During Kargil war just a handful of SSG units held down entire India military for 4 weeks, it was only after France supplied targeting pods to Indian Mirages that they managed to use high altitutde bombing in the Kargil war
ex-SSG commandos are employed by the rich Arab country to guard Royal Familys because of their reputation, in Saudi Arabia ex-SSG members also provide training to Saudi special forces, who have access to Western training
Pakistan army won gold medal out of 86 teams in the Cambrian Patrol which is a international military patrolling exercise covers 37km in 48hours
in addition Turkish special forcs and Pakistani special forces routinely train together, both train with Navy Seals
and it was "uneducated" Turkish army that saved Americans 8ths army and 2nd Division from destruction from a Chinese attack, the result of which was the vote for Turkey to join Nato membership in 1952, infact it was because of the Turkish soldiers in Korea why Turkey is even in Nato today
and if u are serving in Nato then it goes to show how "educated" training they are giving you, if u dont know any of the above facts
you say "The Pakistani nuclear armament is a sign of weakness ", well even Indian forces had reached FOB (forward operating bases) in 1999 and 2002 stand off, the call of the attack was just waiting for a phone to come, but Indian high command never made the call, the reason, because of Pakistans nuclear arsenal and its ballistic missiles, we averted war twice because of nukes. so its our greatest strenght
during the 6 day war Pakistan Air force sent its pilots to engage Israeli Air force, they shot down 10 aircraft without a single loss, our Air Marshall at the time was Nur Khan, and this prompted Ezer Weizman, who was also the Commander of the Israeli Air Force and the Minister of Defense of Israel, wrote in his autobiography that "He was a formidable fellow and I was glad that he was Pakistani and not Egyptian"
Pakistans military track record is second to none, from land to air, they have been fighting and winning wars since 1947
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Kurt
Junior Member
I have no doubt all nations have good soldiers and these good soldiers can be grouped, trained and well equipped, but there is simply not enough money for all soldiers to have the latest gadgets on the same scale as the US armed forces or enough secured mobility to decide where fighting takes place.
Lybia nicely shows how a little help by these elite forces can help a rather ragtag militia force to win against a better trained enemy that lacks equivalent air support. Air support garantees battlefield mobility and in turn is dependent on lots of money. It's the most expensive item of armed forces with an expensive and complex surveillance to direct fighter aircrafts in the price range of small fighting ships and far ahead of tanks or anything else moving on the ground.
The ISI's games with the CIA is rather Pakistan's undoing because this country lacks the economic base to compete with India's growing strength and thus Pakistan will face a US backed India while relying solely on China as a dependant with little options to negotiate anything, having thus a half-colonial status (at least the generals will continue to have fat paychecks).
Lybia could also become such a half-colony of Western powers if the victors and vanquished are not willing to take responsibility instead of power. That has until now always been the problem with tribal societies that all strive for power and can thus easily be divided and ruled. This arrangements doesn't allow to take responsibility for more than a tribal alliance that plunders a nation's land instead of standing together and developing a nation across all tribal boundaries. Overcoming these tribal division into larger units has been one of the great Chinese and European achievements that created their powerbase. Let's hope Lybia is as well able to be responsible instead of scheming, as happened in all former revolts and revolutions in the region.
Lybia nicely shows how a little help by these elite forces can help a rather ragtag militia force to win against a better trained enemy that lacks equivalent air support. Air support garantees battlefield mobility and in turn is dependent on lots of money. It's the most expensive item of armed forces with an expensive and complex surveillance to direct fighter aircrafts in the price range of small fighting ships and far ahead of tanks or anything else moving on the ground.
The ISI's games with the CIA is rather Pakistan's undoing because this country lacks the economic base to compete with India's growing strength and thus Pakistan will face a US backed India while relying solely on China as a dependant with little options to negotiate anything, having thus a half-colonial status (at least the generals will continue to have fat paychecks).
Lybia could also become such a half-colony of Western powers if the victors and vanquished are not willing to take responsibility instead of power. That has until now always been the problem with tribal societies that all strive for power and can thus easily be divided and ruled. This arrangements doesn't allow to take responsibility for more than a tribal alliance that plunders a nation's land instead of standing together and developing a nation across all tribal boundaries. Overcoming these tribal division into larger units has been one of the great Chinese and European achievements that created their powerbase. Let's hope Lybia is as well able to be responsible instead of scheming, as happened in all former revolts and revolutions in the region.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
if Pakistan can withstand a Israeli, France and Soviet Union (now Russia) back India for the last 6 decades in 6 wars, theres no worrys about a American backed India
in the past we had very little in terms of a military industry and China was still weak, and we pulled through, today we are making JF17 like candy
sorry, its going to take alot more than that to scare Pakistan cus simply put, we dont really care who backs India, cus like our fighter pilot ace said in 1965 when he shot down 5 Indian aircraft in under 30 seconds a record which still stands today, our best pilot MM Alam, its the man behind the machine that counts
and it was the tribes of Afghanistan that finally forced the Soviets to retreat in 1980s, they are not a bad thing all countrys have tribes, even Scotland has its own Clans, it makes for a rich history and great story telling for future generations
in the past we had very little in terms of a military industry and China was still weak, and we pulled through, today we are making JF17 like candy
sorry, its going to take alot more than that to scare Pakistan cus simply put, we dont really care who backs India, cus like our fighter pilot ace said in 1965 when he shot down 5 Indian aircraft in under 30 seconds a record which still stands today, our best pilot MM Alam, its the man behind the machine that counts
and it was the tribes of Afghanistan that finally forced the Soviets to retreat in 1980s, they are not a bad thing all countrys have tribes, even Scotland has its own Clans, it makes for a rich history and great story telling for future generations
Schumacher
Senior Member
African tribes, once protected by Qaddafi in Libya, now being massacred.
Scores killed in Libya tribal clashes
Fighting in southern town of Sabha has killed more than 70 people as African tribe says it is facing a "massacre".
Last Modified: 29 Mar 2012 01:44
Three days of clashes between tribes in the southern Libyan town of Sabha have killed more than 70 people, a Libyan government spokesman has said.
"It is regrettable that more than 70 people have been killed and more than 150 have been wounded" since Monday in the desert town of Sabha, Nasser al-Manaa told a news conference in Tripoli on Wednesday.
"We announce the reactivation of the Toubou Front for the Salvation of Libya to protect Toubou people from ethnic cleansing. If necessary, we will ...work towards the creation of a state, as in South Sudan."
Local officials said the fighting pitting the African Toubou tribe against Arab tribes in Sabha had eased and efforts to secure a truce were underway, although the Toubou claimed they were facing a "massacre."
"There are still clashes but not as intense," in Sabha, said Abdelmajid Seif al-Nasser, a town official who quit his post on Tuesday from the ruling National Transitional Council in protest over the violence.
"The national army and a committee of elders have entered the town in a bid to secure a truce," Nasser, who represented the NTC in Sabha, told AFP news agency.
But Toubou tribesmen said Arab tribesmen from Sabha were "surrounding" them in the Tayuri and Al-Hijara neighbourhoods and shelling them since the early hours of the morning.
"Al-Hijara is surrounded from all sides. All the Arab (tribes) are against us. They are bombarding us using all sorts of rockets indiscriminately. It is a real massacre," said Karima Jaber, a Sabha airport employee.
‘Ethnic cleansing’
Toubou chief Issa Abdel Majid Mansur said earlier this week that 40 members of his tribe had been killed, and accused Libyan authorities of using warplanes and tanks against his community.
Speaking to AFP, Mansur denounced what he said was a plan to "ethnically cleanse" his people, and raised the threat of a separatist bid........................................................
Scores killed in Libya tribal clashes
Fighting in southern town of Sabha has killed more than 70 people as African tribe says it is facing a "massacre".
Last Modified: 29 Mar 2012 01:44
Three days of clashes between tribes in the southern Libyan town of Sabha have killed more than 70 people, a Libyan government spokesman has said.
"It is regrettable that more than 70 people have been killed and more than 150 have been wounded" since Monday in the desert town of Sabha, Nasser al-Manaa told a news conference in Tripoli on Wednesday.
"We announce the reactivation of the Toubou Front for the Salvation of Libya to protect Toubou people from ethnic cleansing. If necessary, we will ...work towards the creation of a state, as in South Sudan."
Local officials said the fighting pitting the African Toubou tribe against Arab tribes in Sabha had eased and efforts to secure a truce were underway, although the Toubou claimed they were facing a "massacre."
"There are still clashes but not as intense," in Sabha, said Abdelmajid Seif al-Nasser, a town official who quit his post on Tuesday from the ruling National Transitional Council in protest over the violence.
"The national army and a committee of elders have entered the town in a bid to secure a truce," Nasser, who represented the NTC in Sabha, told AFP news agency.
But Toubou tribesmen said Arab tribesmen from Sabha were "surrounding" them in the Tayuri and Al-Hijara neighbourhoods and shelling them since the early hours of the morning.
"Al-Hijara is surrounded from all sides. All the Arab (tribes) are against us. They are bombarding us using all sorts of rockets indiscriminately. It is a real massacre," said Karima Jaber, a Sabha airport employee.
‘Ethnic cleansing’
Toubou chief Issa Abdel Majid Mansur said earlier this week that 40 members of his tribe had been killed, and accused Libyan authorities of using warplanes and tanks against his community.
Speaking to AFP, Mansur denounced what he said was a plan to "ethnically cleanse" his people, and raised the threat of a separatist bid........................................................
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
That is disturbing news, the people carrying out there crimes are no better than Gaddafi himself
Whole reason they got ride of Gaddafi was so these things stop
Whole reason they got ride of Gaddafi was so these things stop
solarz
Brigadier
It's a tragedy played out over and over again. The real culprit is the Western citizens who continue to allow their government and mouthpiece media to deceive them.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Not much they could do about it if the media and government is in cahoots and singing from the same page.
Notice how there has been hardly any coverage of the steadily deteriorating situation in Libya on the mainstream media, and contrast that to the blanket coverage building up to war and on Syria now.
The same war junkies in the mainstream media help start the war, and now that it has all gone to sh!t as all the intellectuals warned it would, they are keeping mum about the aftermath because the media would never ever admit that they were being rash and irresponsible in helping to beat the war drums without any thought about what happens afterwards. Since there are no western troops being killed forcing them to report it, they don't.