The Civil War in Libya

solarz

Brigadier
Continued dominance by the current top dogs (basically the countries enforcing the 'no fly zone') is what this is all about. The future economic benefits they get from overthrowing Gaddafi and installing a friendly regime far outweighs the cost of military intervention. Overthrowing Gaddafi is definitely the goal even though the enforcers are denying it.

There is no certainty at all that the rebel factions will be friendly toward the West, even *if* they manage to overthrow Gaddafi. In fact, we don't even know what *is* the rebel factions, aside from a common opposition against Gaddafi.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
He has the cowards favorite defense..human shields..

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Though the difference seems like the human shields are voluntary and coming to him, rather than him going to a throng of innocents.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
right now the rebels lack a structured leadership, if gadaffi goes i wouldnt be surprised if libya plunges into some kind of chronic internal fragmentation like somalia. its prolly better to just keep gadaffi and force him to negotiate, then send UN peacekeepers in.

i would be careful about giving the rebels too much credit for anything, they are not a democratic force, and they certainly have not demonstrated the capacity to lead. these people are as good as karzai, which is quite unfortunate.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
there is an interesting undercurrent within the coalition's side that i think some of us might have noticed. first of all there is the disagreement between some of the ranking officials in the US NSC. the pentagon's reluctance to commit a lot of resource to this was clear from the very start. clinton and rice on the other hand have more or less high-jacked the policy and helped push through the UN resolution. the danger here for the US is that they were facing a potentially open-ended commitment, which they did not want. because the resolution was passed so hastily there was no follow up action plan. but luckily obama was smart enough to side with the pentagon and says "well we are only really gonna do this for a few days". so the Americans cleared the way with tomahawk and b-2 for the french, which will do most of the patrolling.

sarkozy on the other hand was obviously trying to reassert French dominance by fundamentally changing the geopolitical configuration in the region. that will be achieved by removing gadaffi and install a pro-west regime. it'll be a huge win for France but its hard to say if it will get there. as long as gadaffi hangs on its unlikely that France will get the goahead to send in ground troops. so if it really wants gadaffi out that badly the end game might simply be an "accidental" bombing of his tent...
 

FarkTypeSoldier

Junior Member
And now the US and NATO interferes and help the rebels of Libya, just like the 1980s Afghan-Soviet war. CIA helped to train the Afghanistan Rebel against Soviet forces... What the Afghan rebel then after now is known as 'al-Qaeda'.

What do you guys think after the Libyan rebels and allies won? What if the rebels turned out more worst than the current regime?

There is no certainty at all that the rebel factions will be friendly toward the West, even *if* they manage to overthrow Gaddafi. In fact, we don't even know what *is* the rebel factions, aside from a common opposition against Gaddafi.

Like I mentioned earlier... Replace a dictator with another barbarian... I am not sure whether the removal of this Col. will bring back peace or not, but I am sure Africa is an erupting war zone now. Several potential war zone will erupt. I hope I am wrong though...
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
A little summary of how I see the story so far.

So far relatively few aerial sorties have been flown, except for French aircraft and a few long range Tornado runs from the UK. The rest of the Aircraft seem still to be moving into their forward bases. The rest of the attacks seem to be missile attacks from warships assembled a few weeks ago for the evacuation of overseas personnel. There was no US Strike Carrier on station at commencement and if one has indeed been redeployed, it has yet to arrive.

I still say that the resolution was not expected to go through and that Obama is furious that it has. Note – despite “taking” his country to war, he has not changed his schedule and instead has been in Brazil; a country which abstained, so he cannot even claim to be consulting with close allies. On top of this he has made it clear that he wants nothing to do with the campaign and wants to hand over responsibility to others, at the earliest opportunity.

Now the Arab league are saying that they are unhappy with the form the action has taken, which again suggests that there is friction between the US and House of Saud over this matter.

It all seems somewhat confusing, but I think I can see what has been happening.

First off we had the revolt in Benghazi which spread. The rebels were flying the old royalist flag and this may have suggested to Gadaffi that his Saudi enemies may have had a hand in it. We all scoffed when Gadaffi condemned the rebels as Al-Qaeda, as the rantings of a madman, but if this was indeed an insult against the House of Saud, then its meaning becomes clearer.

On the ground there was chaos as some military units defected to the rebels and loyal units were driven back. In addition many units seemed simply to have sat on the fence waiting for clear signs of the outcome before committing themselves.

In Tripoli, Gadaffi launched a diplomatic initiative to those countries with major oil interests in Libya. In exchange no doubt for major concessions, Gadaffi negotiates his survival, principally down to the fact that he has been a reliable supplier. Word gets out , and those units that were sitting on the fence, come back into action and the rebel advance is soon turned into a route.

The House of Saud however is not done. The Saudis live in two worlds; The Arab and the Islamic, and they want to rule both of them. Gadaffi is to them an upstart who has challenged their rule of the Arabic world, just as the Iranians are there sectarian opponents in the Islamic. King Adbullah sees an opportunity to humiliate an upstart and so seizes it.

The first mention of a No Fly Zone comes from “call me Dave” during his visit to the Gulf. The call takes everyone by surprise and is plainly not welcome. The Call is however supported by the Saudi Dominated Arab League. Initially it looks a dead duck, with three none permanent UNSC members, India , Brazil and South Africa, ruling it out straight away during a conference in Delhi.

The Saudi’s however seem unprepared to take no for an answer and lobby all the hostile UNSC countries heavily, using Oil and Sovereign wealth as leverage. The Saudis know that the Western nations cannot be seen to be voting against such a resolution, so they concentrate on the likely vetoers to get them to abstain.

The US getting wind of this is furious and so toughens up the Resolution to make it utterly unpalatable to China and Russia, looking to force a veto.

For whatever reason though, the resolution is passed and the West has new headache handed to them. The US then grabs control of the early phase and unleashes an almighty missile bombardment. This is to my mind to embarrass the Saudi’s who primarily will have only wanted to humiliate Gadaffi and make him crawl to them for protection and recognise their leadership. Instead the US is acting in a way that will inflame the passions of the Arab Street and make the Saudi’s appear complicit….
 

delft

Brigadier
Yes, SampanViking, that seems a likely reconstruction. If the "Coalition" is successful the result is likely to be another failed state like Kosovo and Somalia.
As for the history of the attitude of the US: I remember that in 1986 or there about the Pentagon suggested in a press briefing that Libya might be about to send its tank army through a thousand miles of desert to occupy Sudan, that being in area the largest country in Africa and Libya at the time having about 3 million inhabitants. There were and are very few airbases in the Sahara to protect the tanks. Btw I saw no remarks in any paper on the idiocy the the Pentagon's notions.
 

delft

Brigadier
I just hear a Dutch retired general, Van Vuren, warn on the Dutch Radio 1, that Libya might become a failed state, just as a said in #147.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
There seems to be little contact between the rebels and the Western forces. This could be exploited by Gaddafi: have his men ditch their military uniforms and start riding in civilian vehicles. The Western forces wouldn't know who to bomb then.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Though the difference seems like the human shields are voluntary and coming to him, rather than him going to a throng of innocents.

from solarz; There seems to be little contact between the rebels and the Western forces. This could be exploited by Gaddafi: have his men ditch their military uniforms and start riding in civilian vehicles. The Western forces wouldn't know who to bomb then.

Read this guys..

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Forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gadhafi are bringing civilians from nearby towns to the rebel-held city of Misrata to use as human shields, a rebel spokesman told Reuters on Monday.

The report could not be independently verified and there was no immediate comment from Libyan officials. The spokesman also said seven people were killed in Misrata in fighting on Sunday, while a resident put the figure at eight.

The Misrata resident also told Reuters that armed pro-Gaddafi forces, dressed in civilian clothes, were in the center of the city. He said the city, 200 km (130 miles) east of Tripoli, was surrounded by Gaddafi's troops and water supplies were still cut off.

"The Gadhafi forces are forcing people from Zawiyat al Mahjoub and Al Ghiran out of their houses and giving them Gaddafi's pictures and the (official Libyan) green flag to chant for Gadhafi," Hassan, a rebel spokesman, told Reuters.
 
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