The Boxer Rebellion 1900-01

Mike Blake

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Fishhead

I appreciate all the points you are making, thank you. Is it not better that exactly because '...while in the west the opinion is roughly one-side story' it is worth trying to get more Chinese-centric views? However 'biased' they may be, at least they are Chinese views - and that is what I am trying [rather unsuccessfully!] to do.

That said, I am also after data, like numbers, clothing, uniforms, weapons etc. Again, any primerary sources anyone can access would be of great help.

Mike
 
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Deleted member 675

Guest
FuManChu

That reference really is most useful, many thanks.

Mike

No problem - glad to have been of any assistance. Don't forget to try a few academic sources - they normally respond positively to e-mail enquiries if you're quite humble. ;)
 

szbd

Junior Member
The only helpful piece of information I can think of is a translated article by Professor Yuan Weishi (Zhongshan University). It's a criticism of what he sees as the prevailing attitude towards the Boxer Rebellion and other associated history.

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The website also gives an account of the controversy caused by the article. For those that know about this it's old news, but if you're completely new to the area it might help.

I would suggest you write directly to some academics at major universities in the US, as there are a lot of Asian-focused historians out there.

Oh man, no, this guy Yuan Weishi sucks. He's a professor of department of Philosiphy, not History. All his work was about to say what we Chinese think are wrong, and we should accept western ideas. He make constent mistakes in history and his view is even more biased than biased western views.

A fact is, in Chinese university, a faculty gets funding according to the number and quality of papers he publishes. Well that's basicly same for every country. So the quality of a paper is measured by the rating of the journal or conference where the paper is published. The ratings are decided by westeners, so some people just make the paper close to western views to get easily published in high rated journals. And of course, these papers have English translation.
 

fishhead

Banned Idiot
Oh man, no, this guy Yuan Weishi sucks. He's a professor of department of Philosiphy, not History. All his work was about to say what we Chinese think are wrong, and we should accept western ideas. He make constent mistakes in history and his view is even more biased than biased western views.

Well let's put it fair, he has the right to express his opinions, even his one is quite marginal in Chinese.

Last year, a Chinese CCP newspaper editor tried to publish one of his old article but it caused widespread protest from the people. It's a really old artilce first coming out in the internet, but 90% of the readers' reaction are negative.
 
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Deleted member 675

Guest
It's a really old artilce first coming out in the internet, but 90% of the readers' reaction are negative.

That doesn't surprise me. The professor's position is not a popular one, so most people will automatically react against it. It would be like someone writing an article saying an independent Taiwan could be good for China - people react emotionally rather than think objectively.

All his work was about to say what we Chinese think are wrong, and we should accept western ideas.

That does not sound like the argument he was putting forward in his paper - did you even read it? He was saying that understanding the Boxer Rebellion is not so simple as to take the current "official" line put about in schools and so forth. He was asking for balance, not replacing a one-side account from the Chinese POV with a one-sided account from the foreign POV.

The ratings are decided by westeners, so some people just make the paper close to western views to get easily published in high rated journals. And of course, these papers have English translation.

I rather doubt your knowledge of on such matters, based upon what you said - the article was not originally translated. The only reason it is in English is because a Chinese blogger translated it.
 
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fishhead

Banned Idiot
I would say the publishing of the article is rather commerisal motivated than political. The author published his view in an academic magazine first but failed to aroused many attention. He posted it on the internet still not many showed much interest except contempted.

The CCP newspaper editor chose to publish it probably due to the commerical reason since today the Chinese newspapers are profit driven, publishing a contradictive article would sure boost its number of readers.

But this time it ran into the publich roars, an article like this in China is just like a holocaust denial article in the west, still a taboo for the mainstream medias.
 

lyhx

Just Hatched
Registered Member
about the BR in our country does not any people concern it !!
in my high school the history textbook said the boxer rebellion were the national hero and striked with the foreign invader .,abd the CCP also the national hero and fight with the japan invader . but now more facts were revealed that the BR just a numerous extremist ,they are only a lot of pitful people . they did not know about the complexion and imposed by the qing dynasty emperor's mother "cixi" .

but in the national crisis ,i think every one would be an craze patriot. just as the western papers described "extremist"!!!!
 

Mightypeon

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Hmm, I do know of a quote of the Habsburg Ambassador to China stating "Währe ich Chinese währe ich Boxer", translated: "If I would be Chinese I would be a Boxer".
 

solarz

Brigadier
Oh man, no, this guy Yuan Weishi sucks. He's a professor of department of Philosiphy, not History. All his work was about to say what we Chinese think are wrong, and we should accept western ideas. He make constent mistakes in history and his view is even more biased than biased western views.

I don't know about that, but some parts of his article did strike me as problematic:

According to the Treaty of Huangpo established between China and France in October 1844, French people were allowed to be active only within the "designated territories" in the five ports agreed upon by both parties. "Any French citizen found to violate this rule, or cross the boundaries, or enter the interior, will be arrested by Chinese officials and sent to the nearest French consulate; the Chinese officials must not assault, injure or mistreat any arrested French persons so as not to damage the amity between the two nations."

Chapdelaine began to preach in Guangxi in 1842. After the Treaty of Huangpo was signed, he refused to leave. This was a wrongful act under the Treaty. But it was wrong for the Xilin official to execute him, for this was against the Treaty obligation to send the arrested Frenchman to the consulate. Today, people have still not figured out what Chapdelaine did to deserve being put to death. According to the normal legalistic viewpoint of justice, the Chinese side was no doubt in the wrong. The textbook is therefore inaccurate in the characterization of this incident.


At that point in history, pretty much any treaty signed by the Qing government with Western powers was an unequal treaty. While we don't know what Chapdelaine did wrong, claiming that the Chinese side was automatically in the wrong because they did not follow the terms of an unequal treaty is, without a doubt, a slap in the face of most Chinese.

A good parallel would be in the movie "Fist of Fury", when Bruce Lee pulverised a sign in front of a park that said: "No dogs and Chinese allowed".


For example, law is the crystallization of human civilization and the rules by which society operates. International treaties have legal validity. People can point out that these treaties and laws were created with the foreign powers in charge and that they are therefore disadvantageous to the weak countries and the poor people. People should continue to criticize and expose the flaws and go through various negotiations using different types of pressures to set up new regulations and treaties. But before the revisions take place, we must still continue to abide by them or else we create unnecessary chaos which are detrimental to the weaker nations and the poor people in the final analysis.

During the 19th and 20th centuries, people in China have done many "illegal" things. The Boxer incident is one example. The important thing to note is that there are still people who regard those barbarous activities as "revolution." In the 90's of the twentieth century, there are still people who regard the viewpoint of abiding by international treaties as treasonous surrender that ought to be seriously denounced!

I think this pretty much sums up Mr. Yuan's views, and explains why his position is an unpopular one, and also shows how it is flawed.

Mr. Yuan is basically saying that it doesn't matter if a treaty is equal or unequal, as long as it exists, it should be followed. If you want to change it, you should do it through diplomatic channels.

What Mr. Yuan forgets is that no diplomacy can exist without force of arms to back it up. The Qing government was in no position to militarily challenge the Western Powers, and thus it was in no position to bring about any diplomatic change to the treaties!

Secondly, Mr Yuan also forgets, or perhaps he deliberately ignores, the fact that the Qing government on the whole did follow those unequal treaties. That there were incidents is natural as those treaties are unequal, and considered to be humiliations. The foreign invasions happened after a couple of relatively minor incidents. Take this quote, for example:

It should also be pointed out that the textbook failed to mention the two basic root causes of this war. First, the English government asked the Qing government to faithfully follow the requirements of the Treaty of Jiangning, in which an important clause was that the English officials and merchants be allowed to enter and leave Guangzhou city freely. Letting the foreigners enter the city seems to be a trivial matter today. At the time, there were similar disputes in the other four open ports as well, but those tussles were resolved without crises. In Guangzhou, it was a total mess that shook the entire government and set the first example of refusing access to the foreigners. This matter went on for more than ten years without resolution, until it had to be settled in the battlefield.

If we brought this scenario to the 21st century, and one nation starts a battle with another nation because the latter was unwilling to follow a trade agreement, who do you think would be at fault?

Mr Yuan is basically saying that the USA would be right to invade/attack Canada if Toronto ever decided not to follow NAFTA.
 

maozedong

Banned Idiot
After eight-captured Beijing in 1900, the Boxers were harsh reprisals and killings.

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Eight Power Allied Forces occupied Beijing, foreign troops, together with the Qing authorities executed Boxer, Qing government yield to the invaders, together with the foreign troops killed the Boxers.
Power Allied Forces took the opportunity to any looting in Beijing.

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