Tejas production by June

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vincelee

Junior Member
this is getting retarded, why is it that every Indian on every military forum, with no background in aerospace engineering whatsoever, always say the same *****? I mean seriously, DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE HAVING 4 CHANNELS EQUATE TO SUPERIORITY?

Reality check please? The Indian aerospace industry is piss poor by almost any standards. Now, it took the French, the British, the Russians (only recently), the Americans, and the Chinese YEARS to get a working model, AND THAT'S YEARS WITH A FLEET OF FLYING PROTOTYPES! Do you have any god damned idea about what ACTUALLY GOES INTO A DIGITAL FLIGHT CONTROL BOX? Do you? You're talking about minute ajustments to lift surfaces once every 0.1 seconds or less for demanding applications. I'm not an aerospace engineer, I'm EE, and I can tell you, right now, that if India can make something as advanced as the system on Rafale/EF or even the J-10, it should have a lot more ranked super computer/clusters. Why? Because this isn't about coding anymore, not that India produces many of the Top Coders anyway-it's about raw power crunching out a few dozen governing equations.

AND WHAT THE **** DO YOU MEAN BY INDIA BEING EQUIPED TO BUILD ADVANCED FBW? That's the dumbest shit I've heard today.

1) To develpe the box, you need a plane, which you haven't had for long

2) Just because you design a chip (I doubt it governs flight logic) doesn't mean you can design a system. Airbus gave India the specs, NOT A COMPLETE TECH TRANSFER.

3) You're just retarded, but that's a given. Here is the real reason: India isn't big at all in Semiconductors. I would know. Which brings us to the question of where they source mil-spec mission specific processors. If it's built in India, well, let's say it would be anything close to the Europeans, or the Chinese for that matter. If it's sourced from abroad, then you can't say India built it.

Add to this the lack of performance of the Kaveri and the SHEER SMALL SIZE OF THE LCA, you think it's going to be a good fighter? Are you going to say that the Bison upgrade is bringing the MiG-21 fleet into the early 4th generation also? Even though Kopyo has like a 500mm radius and the resolution is not enough to actually use R-77 in true BVR?


Now, let's recap why the FBW on the LCA cannot be as advanced as TRUE 4.5 gen fighters.

1) lack of processing power

2) lack of flight time

3) lack of integration experience (which might or might not be the case now, since the curryeaters have had the MKI project for a decade)


Here is what I have to say to any Indian here who still have the guts and/or stupidity to claim LCA/MCA/Arjun/whatever else the Indians are making "world class":

Why don't you update your requirements? Because unless you're the United States, 20 years of paper work does not ensure operational superiority.

Oh, and take some engineering course.

...and Vince/yue, try to remember yourself that you are still hanging on the edge of permanent banning with your two warnings so cut the rudeness and offensivenes rigth now! Understood?
 
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KYli

Brigadier
Vincelee, claim down man, you don't want to end up like Chinawhite. If you know Indians well, some of them will always make many crap statements without facts. The wise thing to do is to ignore them, just let them to make a fool out of themselves. :)

OK indianfighter,

1. India only have obtain the technology of FBW recently, but Euro has over twenty years of experience. You just not come here and claim that because india have FBW so LCA is equate to Typhoon. Euro have bigger and better Aviation industrial and lead India at almost every technology related area. So there is no way India could build anything as good as Typhoon now.
India do not have the technology as Euro have period.

2. That is a pathetic statement, because india acheive some technology breakthrough so india could build a 4.5 fighter. In order to build a good fighter, you need to have not only technology, but also a lot of experience. Experience take time to obtain. That why it is so difficult to play catch up. India never build anything close to a 4 generation fighter so it is no way India could jump ahead to build 4.5. India do not have the experience period.

Goll bans me if I go out of hand:p I will happily be out of your way.
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
well i wont ban anybody, we havent done it for a month now and Im trying to set up an record...

But good point should be taken, is that if you all would read our annouchments bit more carefully, There is a post that forbids all india-china comprassion threads and almoust anything else related to india, simply couse 100% of our previous experiences with the subject had end to closing threads...

so rememer all that you are 'technically' braking forum rules here...but i will tolerate...into some extence...
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
I dont really mind when indian members such as arjunmki speak gooed about their countries weapons, as he has every right to be nationalist. But when he does, he speaks reasonably and does not make outrageous claims like "LCA will kick eurofighter butt!".

Indianfighter must realize that almsot every part of the LCA recieved some handholding from a foreign firm in soem way or another. These news reports that he reads off of seem to be very narrow in claims, and dont provide any sources. Perhaps you indian posters should actually think about waht theese reports sya befort posting them.

Such as "the HMS of the lca can control both missles and guns during combat, thus making it better than any system on the market".
What a dumb comment!!!! The lca has a gasha gsh-23 internal gun. how on earth is a HMS supposed to control the gun? And basically any HMs can control a missle, thats what its made for. the source doesnt even state the off-boresight abilities of the helmet.

Desinging a aircraft control system is different than developing and aircraft AND the control system. just because soem deisgner can put control laws on paper doesnt mean engineers will actually be able to write a fbw program that works simply based off of what the designer wrote.

quote"For example, compared to Israel's HUD, the CSIO equipment is noiseless, silent, and offers a better field of view, he says, adding that it is compact, reliable, non-reflective and designed for high-performance aircraft.""

The eurofighter uses a thales topsight, which is NOt israeli. You seem to be shifting comparision groups for argument. Virtually every helmet mouted sight in existance is designed for high-performance aircrat, even the old and bulky Arsenal(su-27).

"the FBW for the lca is validated on f-16 simulaters"
validating software on simulaters? are you joking? thats just like making a video game amd playing it. almost no relevance to the actual performance of the Fbw on the aircraft itself.

Golle, this is not china-india bashing, but india-europe bashing.
 

ajaybhutani

New Member
vincelee said:
this is getting retarded, why is it that every Indian on every military forum, with no background in aerospace engineering whatsoever, always say the same
look at this.
I'm not an aerospace engineer, I'm EE, and I can tell you, right now, that if India can make something as advanced as the system on Rafale/EF or even the J-10, it should have a lot more ranked super computer/clusters.
even u dont have any experience in aerospace.. but still u mind indians making comments while at the same time making ur own judgements in this forum..
Secondly stop generalizing to "all indians in all forums"..

*****? I mean seriously, DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE HAVING 4 CHANNELS EQUATE TO SUPERIORITY?

Reality check please? The Indian aerospace industry is piss poor by almost any standards. Now, it took the French, the British, the Russians (only recently), the Americans, and the Chinese YEARS to get a working model, AND THAT'S YEARS WITH A FLEET OF FLYING PROTOTYPES!
1. LCA FBW isnt ready yet.. we all know it.
2. first prototype on which it was tested flew in 2001.. and right now there are 4 prototypes flying on which the system is being tested.. its already 4 years.. and LCA will be completed in 2010.. thats 9 years to finish the FBW..
Do you have any god damned idea about what ACTUALLY GOES INTO A DIGITAL FLIGHT CONTROL BOX? Do you? You're talking about minute ajustments to lift surfaces once every 0.1 seconds or less for demanding applications. I'm not an aerospace engineer, I'm EE, and I can tell you, right now, that if India can make something as advanced as the system on Rafale/EF or even the J-10, it should have a lot more ranked super computer/clusters.
i have finished CS degree( worked on embedded systems in college) and now working on distributed systems.. and i can assure you theres a lot of difference between real time systems(in case u dont know FBW is a real time system) and supercomputers.. and FBW doesnt need a supercomputer(just to give u a reason any layman can understand => ef2000 doesnt have a supercomputer in it.).

Why? Because this isn't about coding anymore, not that India produces many of the Top Coders anyway
designing any system isnt just about good coding( esp top coders type coding).. its a lot more about design and giving scope for changes easily (for functionality)... its not just about writing code .. its also about maintaining it..

-it's about raw power crunching out a few dozen governing equations.
raw power is a part of it..rest is a good real time system.... a bad implementation might take many times more raw power than good one..

AND WHAT THE **** DO YOU MEAN BY INDIA BEING EQUIPED TO BUILD ADVANCED FBW? That's the dumbest shit I've heard today.
well its equipped because there are 3 statically unstable planes flying regularly without crashes/crash landing/grounding with only this FBW and no backup... if the FBW fails pilot can do nothing to save the plane..
i guess 4 years is nough to show that the prototype/half developed FBW doesnt have major problems..
1) To develpe the box, you need a plane, which you haven't had for long
its flying for 4 years without any backup behind this FBW..
2) Just because you design a chip (I doubt it governs flight logic) doesn't mean you can design a system. Airbus gave India the specs, NOT A COMPLETE TECH TRANSFER.


3) You're just retarded, but that's a given. Here is the real reason: India isn't big at all in Semiconductors. I would know. Which brings us to the question of where they source mil-spec mission specific processors. If it's built in India, well, let's say it would be anything close to the Europeans, or the Chinese for that matter. If it's sourced from abroad, then you can't say India built it.
since u have an EE degree i believe u shud understand a very basic fact the chip shud fulfil ur requirements putting a more powerful chip wont improve the performance.. its not about wether the indian chips are equal to chineese or european chips in capability .. its about wether they can do the job or not..
Add to this the lack of performance of the Kaveri and
the engine isnt ready/certified.. and hiccups in the first engine one develops are obvious.. lets talk about it when it comes out..
the SHEER SMALL SIZE OF THE LCA, you think it's going to be a good fighter?
how does small size of LCA make it a bad plane?? its designed as a point defence fighter to be deployed in airstrips on border.. and its desinged keeping these requirements in mind( replacing the mig 21s)..
Are you going to say that the Bison upgrade is bringing the MiG-21 fleet into the early 4th generation also? Even though Kopyo has like a 500mm radius and the resolution is not enough to actually use R-77 in true BVR?
1. whats the resolution of kopyoM..
2. its not about gen of the mig21. its about wether it can do the job or not.. its job is to face pakistani f16s(the best plane in their inventory) which dont have any BVR capable missiles at all. the upgrade can give a good chance for these mig21's to stand against these F16's.

Now, let's recap why the FBW on the LCA cannot be as advanced as TRUE 4.5 gen fighters.
its about how u define 4.5 gen fighter FBW..
what i understand is (please correct me if i m wrong..)
a FBW capable of handling a statically unstable plane.
and LCA FBW is surely doing a good job in its development stage to handle a statically unstable planes.. if theres something more u expect in a 4.5 gen plese mention it.
1) lack of processing power
stop contradicting urself.. u dont know what processing system is used by india then how can u complain that it doesnt have nough processing power..

2) lack of flight time
its not complete.. dont worry it wont be certified without nough testing.. or else IAF will not accept it.. ( they even delayed the MKi project by 3-4 years to make sure the project is up to specifications..)...

3) lack of integration experience
theres always a first time.. LCA is the first one for india..
(which might or might not be the case now, since the curryeaters have had the MKI project for a decade)
so thats what ur degree tought u??

Here is what I have to say to any Indian here who still have the guts and/or stupidity to claim LCA/MCA/Arjun/whatever else the Indians are making "world class":
i have seen chineese claim that J10 is comparable to F16 blk 52( even before the J10 was in production..).. paksitanis claim that FC-1 can take on MKI.. and a lot more ..(in other forums) lets be frank we are all here to discuss and learn.. everyone of us is bound to make mistakes and wrong comments ( which seem to be right to our knowledge).. noone is perfect..

Why don't you update your requirements? Because unless you're the United States, 20 years of paper work does not ensure operational superiority.
indian armed forces doesnt accept the stuff which doesnt suit their doctrine or is not upto the mark to their requirements. they wont hesitate buying from outside if LCA doesnt suit the needs. lets leave it to them to decide wether its capable nough for them or not..
Oh, and take some engineering course.
uff.. k.. i scored IIT-JEE all india rank 35( out of 200,000 students who appeared) to get a seat in IIT Delhi Computer Science.. ( IIT's are 3rd worldwide for technology..)..
hope thats enough of an engineering degree to reply to ur post..
 
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tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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Indianfighter said:
Quoted by tphuang
One can also not tell whether LCA's fly-by-wire is inferior to Typhoon. It is an assumption made by you due to the reputation of Typhoon's team as compared to ADA.

The scientist who developed the control laws for LCA was given the Young Scientist Award for 2002.
I don't think you appreciate the process of software development. A software takes years to develop, test and refine. It's a continuous process. Just because you have a software that works, that does not mean it works as well as some other software that does the same work. You can go to any CS forum and ask this.
Source:
CLAW link given by me in previous post.

Besides, India's IT industry is equipped to design complex FBW. HAL has provided design s/ws of aircrafts and composites to Boeing, Airbus. A chip developed by an Indian company shall control all the communications of the latest Airbus A-380 (the world's largest aircraft).
Boeing and Airbus often lend work out to countries like China and India, so they can get more orders. Does that mean these countries have the same development capacity for these things as Boeing and airbus's established order? No, but it does mean they are acceptable by the Western standard. Which is a big step up already.

Read what I wrote, you can have all the necessary tools ready to develop a good FBW software. You will be able to develop something, but it's not as good as the FBW software worked on by the Europeans for 20+ years. Software is a working process, as I told you. Sorry, nobody with SE experience would give any credibility to the stuff you are claiming right now.

The LCA FBW has been validated on F-16 simulators.

Interview from Mr. Shyam Shetty:

""That was quite a challenge too: when we "loaded" the control law software on a F-16 (VISTA in-flight simulator), so that it would "behave" like the future LCA, and obtained the pilot feedback to integrate into our model.""

Source:
CLAW link given by me in previous post.
Now I get what was done here. You basically try to put a LCA FBW on a F-16 simulator to make it behave like LCA. In that case, you better hope it works on the F-16 simulator, because F-16 is much less aerodynamically unstable than LCA. If it doesn't even work on a F-16 simulator, then it would have no chance of working.

Listen, you have multiple FBW software. They can all work on the simulator or the actual thing. Does that mean they can control equally well? No, one would work better than the other. That's common sense.
The flight parameters have been met. The PV-2 variant flown by ADA in Dec. 2005 was meant for weaponization. Since flight parameters have to be met before weaponization, I assume that the parameters of 9g, 15 kms maximum altitude, etc. must have been met in the PV-2.

Source:
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""The PV-2's entry into the flight test phase means not only an addition to the Tejas stable but also a quantum leap in the aircraft's build standard. It now has a fibre glass cockpit, a higher percentage of composites in its airframe structure, and more advanced control laws which make the aircraft amenable to newer configurations and compensate for pilot error by ensuring that the airplane stays within its flyable parameters.""
I didn't say FBW doesn't work. I said that it has yet to be tested at the maximum LCA specs. This is a fact. Until it has been tested at the maximum specs, you cannot uncover some of the harder to detect bugs and such. And in general, FBW software has to be tested through years of operation and such. The newly developed FBW like the ones by the Russians, Chinese, Taiwanese and Indians simply have not went through the years of usage testing that FBW software of F-16 has gone through.
""The Indian HUD, claimed to be superior to similar systems in the international market, can also be used in aiming missiles and guns during combat.

For example, compared to Israel's HUD, the CSIO equipment is noiseless, silent, and offers a better field of view, he says, adding that it is compact, reliable, non-reflective and designed for high-performance aircraft.""

Source:
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wow, one article saying it has certain advantages to the Israeli one and you are jumping over it. This seemed to have been posted in 2000, when we don't know what kind of testing it had with LCA by that time.
The following is from a paper of the Aeronautical Society of India. It details the complete software, processor and Core Avionics Computer developments by India for the Su-30 MKI. Needless to say, they are exhaustive.

""Core Avionics - consists of processors that collect information from the sensors, perform weapon and navigation computations and present the required cues and information on a Head Up Display, Multi-Function Displays and Up Front Control Panel. The Core avionics computer will also interface to a data logging /retrieval system. All these functions are generic - they are required on any upgraded aircraft. Aircraft specific interfaces are required to interface with stores management systems, Air data systems etc.

DARE took up the development and delivery in quantities of Mission Computers, Display Processors and Radar Computers for the Su 30 avionics upgrade. The requirements were analysed and instead of building three different computers DARE developed nine functional modules. The chassis was also common across the computers. These modules use state of the art processors. They are designed as independent modules to do a specific function such as generating computer generated imagery for display on HUD or MFD. But they are able to communicate with the main processor module through high speed Dual Ported RAMs. This makes development of software for these specific functions as independent activities. Also, HW changes in one module does not affect the other modules. Hence this approach reaps the benefits of Open System Architectures to the full. Later when proposals for upgrade of the MiG 27 aircraft came up, DARE could respond with a ready solution by configuring the Display Processor of the Su30 avionics. The evolution is brought out in the following table.""

Technical Source :
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I'm not surprised that you can develop these. These display processor and MFDs and HUD are just screens that display certain information from the radar and other sensors. They are very simple to program compared to a FBW. As I said, it's what I would call the simple avionics. You can get a samsung LCD or some other LCD with different refresh rates. Does it matter for an average user what the refresh rate is? no.
 

ajaybhutani

New Member
Indianfighter said:
Quoted by tphuang
___________________________
I can tell you first hand that there is no way LCA's FBW can equate to that of typhoon.
___________________________

One can also not tell whether LCA's fly-by-wire is inferior to Typhoon. It is an assumption made by you due to the reputation of Typhoon's team as compared to ADA.

The scientist who developed the control laws for LCA was given the Young Scientist Award for 2002.
the FBW isnt complete so lets stop comparing it till it gets ready..
the scientist did a really good job. after all thats his FBW behind thats flying for 4 years .. but more needs to be validated and done..
Source:
CLAW link given by me in previous post.

Besides, India's IT industry is equipped to design complex FBW. HAL has provided design s/ws of aircrafts and composites to Boeing, Airbus. A chip developed by an Indian company shall control all the communications of the latest Airbus A-380 (the world's largest aircraft).
the chip for airbis A-380 is a different thing than a FBW..
i dont doubt that india can/cant do it.. after all a plane is flying nicely without problems.. but theres still work left before we can really start talking about it.
Quoted by tphuang:
__________________________
The fact that LCA FBW system has been validated on F-16 simulator sounds weird. You have 2 planes with totally different structures. FBW on LCA needs a lot of change to work on F-16. I'd have to see who said this. But you can't just put a fighter's FBW on another and expect it to work. It doesn't go that way.
__________________________
The LCA FBW has been validated on F-16 simulators.

Interview from Mr. Shyam Shetty:

""That was quite a challenge too: when we "loaded" the control law software on a F-16 (VISTA in-flight simulator), so that it would "behave" like the future LCA, and obtained the pilot feedback to integrate into our model.""

Source:
CLAW link given by me in previous post.
i have seen things going mad even after working right on simulations.. thats a part of embedded system design.. and real time systems are the toughest of embedded systems to design..
the flight simulation test is obviously the first test.. but quite frankly its nothing more than teaching a kid alphabets before teaching him sentences.. the grammer lessions arent over yet.. sure hes doing a good job in learning and has a potential.. but its not the right time to start jumping up and down on it..


Quoted by tphuang:
___________________________
The most amazing part is that you are equating LCA's FBW despite the fact that it has not shown itself to the full in testing yet. We don't know how well LCA's FBW will even handle when the tests go beyond a maximum of mach1.4 and 5g.
___________________________
The flight parameters have been met. The PV-2 variant flown by ADA in Dec. 2005 was meant for weaponization. Since flight parameters have to be met before weaponization, I assume that the parameters of 9g, 15 kms maximum altitude, etc. must have been met in the PV-2.

Source:
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only two flight of pv2 has happened. not much can be validated in the first two flights..

""The PV-2's entry into the flight test phase means not only an addition to the Tejas stable but also a quantum leap in the aircraft's build standard. It now has a fibre glass cockpit, a higher percentage of composites in its airframe structure, and more advanced control laws which make the aircraft amenable to newer configurations and compensate for pilot error by ensuring that the airplane stays within its flyable parameters.""
most of weapons integration can still be done without the plane going above 5G and M1.4.
its just the beginning of PV2 it needs a lot of flights to make sure that everything is ok with the system.
 

Indianfighter

Junior Member
It is true that the FBW of the LCA is undergiong enhancement according to the source of DeccanHerald posted by me in the last post.

I agree that I did not pay attention to that. My arguments were based on the fact that there were definite reports that flight parameters have to be met before weapons-testing (PV-2).

But after having said that, I do not believe that the country that makes softwares for Boeing/Airbus/Antonov, that has built the CAC that has enough processing power to power everything in the Su-30 MKI (the best aircraft in Asia).......cannot build a FBW that is not of international standards. ADA is being doubted because it is Indian.

Again, the LCA is the world's first Fused fuselage-wing design in a combat jet. Thus, its FBW has to be '"different"' than conventional aircraft.


Complete details about Flight Controls of the LCA:
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Quoted by tphuang:
________________________
In that case, you better hope it works on the F-16 simulator
________________________
The flight control laws were validated on the F-16 XL in 1998.


Quoted by MIGLeader:
________________________
Indianfighter must realize that almsot every part of the LCA recieved some handholding from a foreign firm in soem way or another.
________________________

Complete details of contractors for LCA project:

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Unique indigenous ejector seat developed for LCA:
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""While in the conventional system, the entire canopy flies off and can result in an injury to the pilot, in the newly indigenously developed system, only a certain portion of the canopy which is line-charged, gets severed. This absolutely minimises injury to the pilot," scientist Dr Sudharshan Kumar Salwan, director, ARDE, said

He stressed that no aircraft in the world had this kind of live system which could be operated from outside the aircraft, especially when the pilot was unconscious due to some injuries or in the event of crash-landing. ""

Indigenous MMR radar for LCA:
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About Kaveri, FBW, Gita and Autolay design softwares of LCA sold to Boeing and Airbus, need not be elaborated as it is known.

Other softwares besides the above mentioned exported abroad:
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DRDO has also made indigenous ring-laser gyros for the LCA. I shall try to find the DRDO bulletin for that. It was posted in Bharat Rakshak a few months ago.

Quoted by tphuang:
_________________________
wow, one article saying it has certain advantages to the Israeli one and you are jumping over it.
_________________________
Please note that it was the head of the agency that developed the HUD who said that and not the media-person.
 
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MIGleader

Banned Idiot
First off, it should be noted the LCA is india's first indegedously designed aircraft. The previous marut was designed by kurt wolfe, the german designer who made the infamous focke wolfe seiries of WW2. It is also the first indian supersonic aircraft. Thus, its very unlike this plane will miracoulously achieve performance similar to the ef-2000 or rafale.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
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Indianfighter said:
The flight control laws were validated on the F-16 XL in 1998.
As I mentionned before, this is good, but that just means it's an acceptable FBW, nothing more.
Unique indigenous ejector seat developed for LCA:
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""While in the conventional system, the entire canopy flies off and can result in an injury to the pilot, in the newly indigenously developed system, only a certain portion of the canopy which is line-charged, gets severed. This absolutely minimises injury to the pilot," scientist Dr Sudharshan Kumar Salwan, director, ARDE, said

He stressed that no aircraft in the world had this kind of live system which could be operated from outside the aircraft, especially when the pilot was unconscious due to some injuries or in the event of crash-landing. ""
It is an accomplishment. However, it's an ejector seating, how is this going to make the fighter win a fight more easily? You keep on posting avionics that have little impacts in actual fights.

About Kaveri, FBW, Gita and Autolay design softwares of LCA sold to Boeing and Airbus, need not be elaborated as it is known.
Not known to me, but do you know what design softwares mean? It means the software you use to design these systems. With all the outsourcing going to India, it's not surprising if airbus is buying such software from India.

Please note that it was the head of the agency that developed the HUD who said that and not the media-person.
Do you know that CAC designer also made a lot of amazing comments about J-10 and the sukhoi chief consistently puts su-35 at the same level as typhoon/Rafale? You are the head of the agency, you are obviously going to praise your own product. Also, he has compared the HUD to the Israeli one. Apparently, it has certain advantages at the moment that he made the comment. Maybe he should've explained why it's better than the other HUDs? Then again, it's just an HUD, probably a waste of time to do so.
 
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