Tejas production by June

Yeah, well the thing is that the ws-10a as already been certified, in june of 2005 i beileve. Trial testing of the engine on j-11s has already occured.

Once kaveri is certifed, it will still need testing on the LCA, further delaying procurment. But if india thinks its ok to put an uncertified engine on an operational combat aircraft, i wont stop them.

I believe the word they used for WS-10A is that it has passed all the tests needed for certification. I read this in December. You have to remember the endurance test was the last major barrier and that was passed in October. WS-10 has actually already been tested on J-11 as early as 2002, so I really don't think compatibility with J-11 is an issue.

anyhow, let's get back on topic here, guys. It's LCA, not WS-10 we are talking about.

Quoted by MIGleader
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What a biased statement. The french are obviously the masters of developing FBW and other associated avionics for aircraft.
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The LCA has quadruplex FBW system. It is as advanced as any 4.5 gen modern fighter such as the Rafael or Typhoon.

Quoted by MiGleader:
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If india has the best flight control technology, why did they put french avionics on the su-30MKI?
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French and Israeli CFE's such as multi-function displays and LCD displays were placed in the MKI. The mission computers, softwares controlling most of the avionics, EW suite Tarang, are entirely Indian.

India's fighter engine will be world class: US

Press Trust of India

New Delhi, February 5, 2006

Though India's maiden bid to develop a fighter engine has been caught in various hurdles, American experts have offered some encouragement, holding out a promise that Kaveri can be developed into a contemporary world class engine.

"We are ready to join in partnership with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to make Kaveri work," General William J Begert of the world's leading aircraft engine manufacturers, Pratt and Whitney, said.

DRDO scientists had kept the development of the Kaveri engine under wraps, exuding confidence that India had developed the technological edge to develop its own aircraft engine, so far confined to handful of developed countries.

But after considerable in-house progress, with scientists even going in for a number of high-altitude proving tests in sites in Russia, the development almost came to a dead end forcing the DRDO to look for a technology partner.

American engine manufacturers had to pull out and fly in retired gas turbine engines as they, too, were intially foxed by the Indian Kaveri engine. Now they, too, believe that Kaveri is "truly a world class engine".

But, like the DRDO officials, they refuse to say where the Indian engineers had got stuck, merely commenting that the DRDO gas turbine technology is "truly Indian and a very responsive effort".

India's top defence scientist M Natarajan says that though DRDO had agreed to go in for international collaboration to make Kaveri airborne," the partners will have to work to our terms".

Source:

Indianfighter said:

Quoted by MIGleader
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What a biased statement. The french are obviously the masters of developing FBW and other associated avionics for aircraft.
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The LCA has quadruplex FBW system. It is as advanced as any 4.5 gen modern fighter such as the Rafael or Typhoon.

Quoted by MiGleader:
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If india has the best flight control technology, why did they put french avionics on the su-30MKI?
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French and Israeli CFE's such as multi-function displays and LCD displays were placed in the MKI. The mission computers, softwares controlling most of the avionics, EW suite Tarang, are entirely Indian.

Click to expand...

The Sextant Avionique avionics on the su-30mki are french, as well as the MFDs, flight data recorder, and dual ring laser gyro. The EW suite is israeli. The tarang is not an EW suite, but a RWR. The HMS is from Elbit systems, the SU 967. The fact india can make a mission computer for a fighter is not so mamazing, since the country has a good IT industry.

Are you saying the FBW of the lca is advanced as the FBW of the ef2000 or the lca itself is advanced as the ef-2000?

Quoted by MIGleader
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The Sextant Avionique avionics on the su-30mki are french, as well as the MFDs, flight data recorder, and dual ring laser gyro. The EW suite is israeli. The tarang is not an EW suite, but a RWR. The HMS is from Elbit systems, the SU 967. The fact india can make a mission computer for a fighter is not so mamazing, since the country has a good IT industry.
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I agree that the Tarang is the RWR system and not the radar jammer. The radar jammers are provided by Elta. The HMS is provided by a Ukrainian company.

Indian processors and mission computers run most of the avionics of the Su-30 MKI.
The display processors for the French MFDs, radar processors, mission computer, flight management computer/softwares, Integrated communication suite, VHF and HF radio sets, a secured digital telecommunications system (under INCOM of HAL) are entirely Indian.

Russian C101 radar computer has been replaced by Indian processor. It provides ground attack mode with simultaneus air target search.

The following is a summary of the suites developed by India:

Mission Computer cum Display Processor - MC-486 and DP-30MK (Defence Avionics Research Establishment - DARE)
Radar Computer - RC1 and RC2 (DARE)
Tarang Mk2 Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) + High Accuracy Direction Finding Module (HADF) (DARE
IFF-1410A - Identification Friend or Foe (IFF)
Integrated Communication suite INCOM 1210A (HAL)
Radar Altimeter - RAM-1701 (HAL)
Programmable Signal Processor (PSP) - (LRDE)

Besides, DRDO and Irbis are developing a PESA radar for the MKI version, which will be revealed in 2010. The 2007 bars radar is claimed to have detection ranges of 180 kms. It shall also have Indian processors and s/ws.

It is not known why the indigenous HUD for the LCA was not installed on the Su-30 MKI. The LCA HUD is claimed to be superior to the F-16 HUD by its manufacturers.

Sources:



It must be noted, that it is Indian avionics that mark the superiority of the Su-30 MKI and the Su-30 being purchased by Malaysia.

Quoted by MIGleader:
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Are you saying the FBW of the lca is advanced as the FBW of the ef2000 or the lca itself is advanced as the ef-2000?
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The statement given by me was : "It is as advanced as any 4.5 gen modern fighter such as the Rafael or Typhoon."
It is based on the fact that both are quadruplex FBW systems. It is unlikely that FBW systems of the same --plex have many comparisons, similar to computers of similar configurations by different manufacturers.

The LCA FBW system has been validated on F-16 simulators. The HUD of the LCA is also of international standards. Thus, it is not unlikely that the FBW and flight-assistance of the LCA is inferior to any modern fighter.

To quote Mr. Shyam Shetty at the National Control Law team, which designed the LCA laws:

"We had a leader who was an amazing motivator, we had mathematicians, designers and even a pilot who could "talk control". There aren't too many teams worldwide who have successfully developed fighter class control laws, and, of course, no one in the world would ever sell you such a control law."

Sources:
1] Interview with Mr. Shetty and photos of the team/ labs:


2]

Indianfighter, read what we wrote. Quadriplex just means there is a lot of redunduncy provided. It does not mean that each copy of the FBW is actually as good as the FBW on typhoon. Do you understand this? I'm in the software industry. I can tell you first hand that there is no way LCA's FBW can equate to that of typhoon. The most amazing part is that you are equating LCA's FBW despite the fact that it has not shown itself to the full in testing yet. We don't know how well LCA's FBW will even handle when the tests go beyond a maximum of mach1.4 and 5g.

"the hud of LCA is alos of international standard"? First, where did you get that from? Second, it's a display! It's software complexity is no where near that of a FBW. It's a lot easier to do than a FBW. FBW is something that you perfect over time. Each release of FBW will be better than the previous release. You can only correct problems in FBW from more flight testing. The FBW on LCA right now will be no where close to the FBW on it in 2010 when it gets certified. The fact that LCA FBW system has been validated on F-16 simulator sounds weird. You have 2 planes with totally different structures. FBW on LCA needs a lot of change to work on F-16. I'd have to see who said this. But you can't just put a fighter's FBW on another and expect it to work. It doesn't go that way.

Mission Computer cum Display Processor - MC-486 and DP-30MK (Defence Avionics Research Establishment - DARE)
Radar Computer - RC1 and RC2 (DARE)
Tarang Mk2 Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) + High Accuracy Direction Finding Module (HADF) (DARE
IFF-1410A - Identification Friend or Foe (IFF)
Integrated Communication suite INCOM 1210A (HAL)
Radar Altimeter - RAM-1701 (HAL)
Programmable Signal Processor (PSP) - (LRDE)

Most of the listed avionics seem to be simple communication module between friendly aircrafts and processors. It's not hard to believe that India can develop these things. Other auxiliary avionics like air data computer, digital fuel management system and even 1553 databus are not that hard to develop really. I would probably say autopilot is less complex than FBW. In general, EW suite, FBW quality, possibly autopilot and the quality of MFDs (it's interaction with radar and user friendliness and such) are probably the most important part of avionics.

Quoted by tphuang
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I can tell you first hand that there is no way LCA's FBW can equate to that of typhoon.
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One can also not tell whether LCA's fly-by-wire is inferior to Typhoon. It is an assumption made by you due to the reputation of Typhoon's team as compared to ADA.

The scientist who developed the control laws for LCA was given the Young Scientist Award for 2002.

Source:
CLAW link given by me in previous post.

Besides, India's IT industry is equipped to design complex FBW. HAL has provided design s/ws of aircrafts and composites to Boeing, Airbus. A chip developed by an Indian company shall control all the communications of the latest Airbus A-380 (the world's largest aircraft).

Quoted by tphuang:
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The fact that LCA FBW system has been validated on F-16 simulator sounds weird. You have 2 planes with totally different structures. FBW on LCA needs a lot of change to work on F-16. I'd have to see who said this. But you can't just put a fighter's FBW on another and expect it to work. It doesn't go that way.
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The LCA FBW has been validated on F-16 simulators.

Interview from Mr. Shyam Shetty:

""That was quite a challenge too: when we "loaded" the control law software on a F-16 (VISTA in-flight simulator), so that it would "behave" like the future LCA, and obtained the pilot feedback to integrate into our model.""

Source:
CLAW link given by me in previous post.


Quoted by tphuang:
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The most amazing part is that you are equating LCA's FBW despite the fact that it has not shown itself to the full in testing yet. We don't know how well LCA's FBW will even handle when the tests go beyond a maximum of mach1.4 and 5g.
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The flight parameters have been met. The PV-2 variant flown by ADA in Dec. 2005 was meant for weaponization. Since flight parameters have to be met before weaponization, I assume that the parameters of 9g, 15 kms maximum altitude, etc. must have been met in the PV-2.

Source:



""The PV-2's entry into the flight test phase means not only an addition to the Tejas stable but also a quantum leap in the aircraft's build standard. It now has a fibre glass cockpit, a higher percentage of composites in its airframe structure, and more advanced control laws which make the aircraft amenable to newer configurations and compensate for pilot error by ensuring that the airplane stays within its flyable parameters.""


Quoted by tphuang:
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"the hud of LCA is alos of international standard"? First, where did you get that from?
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""The Indian HUD, claimed to be superior to similar systems in the international market, can also be used in aiming missiles and guns during combat.

For example, compared to Israel's HUD, the CSIO equipment is noiseless, silent, and offers a better field of view, he says, adding that it is compact, reliable, non-reflective and designed for high-performance aircraft.""

Source:


Quoted by tphuang:
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Most of the listed avionics seem to be simple communication module between friendly aircrafts and processors. It's not hard to believe that India can develop these things. Other auxiliary avionics like air data computer, digital fuel management system and even 1553 databus are not that hard to develop really.
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The following is from a paper of the Aeronautical Society of India. It details the complete software, processor and Core Avionics Computer developments by India for the Su-30 MKI. Needless to say, they are exhaustive.

""Core Avionics - consists of processors that collect information from the sensors, perform weapon and navigation computations and present the required cues and information on a Head Up Display, Multi-Function Displays and Up Front Control Panel. The Core avionics computer will also interface to a data logging /retrieval system. All these functions are generic - they are required on any upgraded aircraft. Aircraft specific interfaces are required to interface with stores management systems, Air data systems etc.

DARE took up the development and delivery in quantities of Mission Computers, Display Processors and Radar Computers for the Su 30 avionics upgrade. The requirements were analysed and instead of building three different computers DARE developed nine functional modules. The chassis was also common across the computers. These modules use state of the art processors. They are designed as independent modules to do a specific function such as generating computer generated imagery for display on HUD or MFD. But they are able to communicate with the main processor module through high speed Dual Ported RAMs. This makes development of software for these specific functions as independent activities. Also, HW changes in one module does not affect the other modules. Hence this approach reaps the benefits of Open System Architectures to the full. Later when proposals for upgrade of the MiG 27 aircraft came up, DARE could respond with a ready solution by configuring the Display Processor of the Su30 avionics. The evolution is brought out in the following table.""

Technical Source :