Taiwan's Reaction to PLA Force Modernization

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DPRKUnderground

DPRKUnderground

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General Dynamics has some experience with SS submarines. They did a huge upgrade project on the Egyptian Romeo-class submarines.

Contractors can easily take some old ideas. Look at where the B-2 concept came from. Plus it was the US who made the Albacore hull which made submarines much faster.

It seems that most of the submarines would be constructed in Taiwan with the first one or few in the US. That's just what China did with the Kilo-class and Pakistan with the Agusta-90Bs.
 
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Deleted member 675

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DPRKUnderground said:
It seems that most of the submarines would be constructed in Taiwan with the first one or few in the US. That's just what China did with the Kilo-class and Pakistan with the Agusta-90Bs.
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DPRK, welcome back (and, no, I'm not being sarcastic).

Well this is one of the big problems. The US DoD has caused a lot of problems over the Taiwanese submarine deal. First it refused to allow Taiwan access to any plans being drawn up, meaning it wouldn't be able to use them to make future designs. Second I'm not even sure it wants Taiwan to manufacture any of them.

If you have some new information to say Taiwan will be able to make all but the first few, I would like to see it. Also do you know if the DoD is still insisting it can keep hold of the designs?
 
DPRKUnderground

DPRKUnderground

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FuManChu said:
DPRK, welcome back (and, no, I'm not being sarcastic).

Well this is one of the big problems. The US DoD has caused a lot of problems over the Taiwanese submarine deal. First it refused to allow Taiwan access to any plans being drawn up, meaning it wouldn't be able to use them to make future designs. Second I'm not even sure it wants Taiwan to manufacture any of them.

If you have some new information to say Taiwan will be able to make all but the first few, I would like to see it. Also do you know if the DoD is still insisting it can keep hold of the designs?
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The Taiwanese government wanted to build most of the submarines at their own shipyards. I never knew that the US wasn't allowing that. But then again it was only a statement made by President Chen sometime ago.
 
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DPRKUnderground said:
The Taiwanese government wanted to build most of the submarines at their own shipyards. I never knew that the US wasn't allowing that.
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EDIT: I re-checked, and in the past Rumsfeld/the DoD has said that:

a) Taiwan would play no role in building the submarines
b) Taiwan would not be allowed to keep the designs

I wonder whether the fact Rummy has left will change anything. If things are to move ahead, it may require some of the people around Robert Gates to be replaced as well. So far I haven't heard any news as to whether the DoD still insists on a) & b), or will give some ground.
 
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Pointblank

Senior Member
DPRKUnderground said:
General Dynamics has some experience with SS submarines. They did a huge upgrade project on the Egyptian Romeo-class submarines.

Contractors can easily take some old ideas. Look at where the B-2 concept came from. Plus it was the US who made the Albacore hull which made submarines much faster.

It seems that most of the submarines would be constructed in Taiwan with the first one or few in the US. That's just what China did with the Kilo-class and Pakistan with the Agusta-90Bs.
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1. How long ago was that experience? If that set of experience is not maintained and used for a long time, don't expect to be able to draw upon that sort of experience again in the future.

2. The Americans borrowed concepts supplied from the World War II developments in Germany on U-boat design. Today's submarines are much more complex than ever before, and this leads back to the first point of recent experience in designing and building. If you don't have the experience to build recent, modern SSK's, and you attempt to build them from scratch, despite all the help you can get nations that are experienced in building the type, you will encounter major problems in the design. Look at the Australian experience of the Collins class submarines; they encountered major design flaws that took years to rectify, and the class is still much maligned with bugs.

3. The Chinese did not build any Kilo class submarines. All were built in Russia. The Pakistani's built their submarines with heavy assistance from the French, who were there to guide them through the construction and help resolve the bugs. Designing a whole new submarine class from scratch is a far more difficult feat.
 
DPRKUnderground

DPRKUnderground

Junior Member
FuManChu said:
EDIT: I re-checked, and in the past Rumsfeld/the DoD has said that:

a) Taiwan would play no role in building the submarines
b) Taiwan would not be allowed to keep the designs

I wonder whether the fact Rummy has left will change anything. If things are to move ahead, it may require some of the people around Robert Gates to be replaced as well. So far I haven't heard any news as to whether the DoD still insists on a) & b), or will give some ground.
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No wonder why they didn't allow this to get passed. President Chen must have been really pissed when he heard this.

Question; Couldn't you use the hull from let's say... the LA-class and put in a diesel engine? Or maybe reconstruct the hull add a diesel engine and water down the electronics?
 
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Pointblank

Senior Member
DPRKUnderground said:
No wonder why they didn't allow this to get passed. President Chen must have been really pissed when he heard this.

Question; Couldn't you use the hull from let's say... the LA-class and put in a diesel engine? Or maybe reconstruct the hull add a diesel engine and water down the electronics?
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See Bluejacket's response.

The other major problem I see is the fact is the major change in technology that accompanies if you are going from an obsolete type to the latest design overnight. You can see Canada's experience with its Victoria (ex. RN Upholder) class submarines; besides the obvious fact that the subs were lemons from the start (that's a whole different discussion right there!), there was a major learning curve that accompanied the submarines as well, as the Canadian Navy was coming from 1960's era submarines to 1980's submarines; a big technological leap. Not only did the crews have to become familiar with the technology in the submarine to operate the submarine, the whole support system behind the subs (technicians, shipyard workers, etc) had to make a major technological leap with the new subs, and there were major teething issues in terms of the support systems behind the submarines. I predict virtually the same problems will occur with the ROCN, as their newest submarines, the Zwaardvis class submarines, are essentially a modernized version in the 1970's, of a 1950's design. It will be a very steep learning curve for the ROCN, and I will guarantee you, the Taiwanese will have very similar issues with operating the subs for the first few years.
 
DPRKUnderground

DPRKUnderground

Junior Member
Pointblank said:
See Bluejacket's response.

The other major problem I see is the fact is the major change in technology that accompanies if you are going from an obsolete type to the latest design overnight. You can see Canada's experience with its Victoria (ex. RN Upholder) class submarines; besides the obvious fact that the subs were lemons from the start (that's a whole different discussion right there!), there was a major learning curve that accompanied the submarines as well, as the Canadian Navy was coming from 1960's era submarines to 1980's submarines; a big technological leap. Not only did the crews have to become familiar with the technology in the submarine to operate the submarine, the whole support system behind the subs (technicians, shipyard workers, etc) had to make a major technological leap with the new subs, and there were major teething issues in terms of the support systems behind the submarines. I predict virtually the same problems will occur with the ROCN, as their newest submarines, the Zwaardvis class submarines, are essentially a modernized version in the 1970's, of a 1950's design. It will be a very steep learning curve for the ROCN, and I will guarantee you, the Taiwanese will have very similar issues with operating the subs for the first few years.
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Thanks! I would expect Taiwan to go off to Europe and receive training from the European submarine powers (England, France, Germany, Sweden and Holland). Taiwan is in dire need of submarines and no one wants to risk getting on China's bad side by selling submarines to them. I just find it sad.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

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FuManChu said:
Well the Taiwanese do have the ATBM system (supposedly) coming into service this year. Although it builds on Patriot technology, it was designed and made in Taiwan.
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Some pretty important new news from Taiwan:

Asia World News said:
Taiwan test-fires missile capable of attacking rival China
Posted on : Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:36:00 GMT | Author : DPA
News Category : Asia (World)

Taipei - Taiwan has test-fired missiles capable of hitting major economic centres of rival China, local news media reported Tuesday, amid a new tension across the Taiwan Strait. Military-funded Chungshan Institute of Science and Technology test-fired the local-made Hsiung Feng 2E, which has a range of up to 1,000 kilometres, last month, Taipei-based United Daily News reported.

Quoting an unnamed institute source, the paper said the missile is able to hit Hong Kong, Shenzhen and Shanghai - the economic centres of China in the south and central parts of the mainland.


It said President Chen Shui-bian inspected the test-firing along with Defence Minister Lee Jye.

The defence ministry, however, declined to comment on the report. The institute also refused to confirm whether it had test-fired the missile or not.

But parliamentarians of the ruling Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) said it explained why Chen was bold enough to say that Taiwan must declare independence.

They said the fact that Taiwan is capable of producing missiles that can threaten China has given Chen a strong boost.
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If the ROC were to announce one day that it too has nuclear weapons, then a missile like this, particularly if available in any numbers, would level the playing field significantly as far as any invasion of Tawian goes. Just a thought.
 
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