Taiwan's Reaction to PLA Force Modernization

Here is some numer regarding ROCAF's AIM-120:

Taiwan
9/27/2000
00-71 200
AIM-120C Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM), 292 LAU-129 Missile Launchers, missile containers, aircraft modification and integration, spare and repair parts, support and test equipment, software support, training, etc.

Foreign Military Sales

$150 million

So, less than 200? not really.

cobrachen said:

So, less than 200? not really.

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200 were authorised for sale by the US, but only 120 were purchased - the legislative yuan probably insisting that the sale was "too expensive", so needed to be cut.

The US recently authorised sale of 218 AIM-120 C7 missiles - an order for them has been included in the 2007 central budget.

just joined and found this thread very interesting, several points

1. The TC seeker was indeed a motorola seeker and it was indeed for Raytheon' s amraam submission, which it lost and Hughes won. then Raytheon a decade later bought out Hughes! So the TC2 is a real Raytheon amraam while the present Raytheon amraam is really a Hughes!

2. TC2 production seems to have stopped at 200 or so. But a VL SAM version (probably for the Kang Ding FFGs) and antiradar version has been developed. TC2A ARM pics on the IDF have been around on the web and there was a TC2 VL launch movie once on the web which has since disappeared. Whether the SAM VL TC2 use a totally different seeker from that initial batch is unclear.

3. 200 amraam were indeed approved for sale but only 120 actually sold. the funds actually came from surplus funds from the initial F16 program, the ROC Legislative Yuan were never asked to approve funding for that lot of amraams. left over funding(and a really lucky break on exchange rates and paying earlier than planned for the purchase of the M2000s) also provided money for the astac EW pods the French sold to Taiwan after Chirac promised Beijing "no more" sales to Taiwan.

4. subs - there has been much speculation about the design for the Taiwanese but the last time Navsea talked to any yard NG had proposed versions of the German 209, 212 for ROCN, They have a licence for the 209 for a proposed Egyptian program. GD has proposed the Spanish S80. The fallback is an updated Barbel - which is why the cost estimates are astronomical! There was also rumors about ex Italian Sauros etc, using the Israeli Dolphin design (ROC NSA bigshot was reported once to be in Haifa looking it over) and the French coughing up a design to get DCN/Thales out of its legal problems with the Taiwanese over the Lafayette bribes (where does a near bankrupt company come up with possibly close to a half billion in illegaly paid commissions?)

FuManChu said:

Who is to say China will be able to decide when a conflict starts? Or are you implying China will find a pretext for war when it decides its airforce, etc is ready for it?

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And who is not to say who is stupid enough to start a war with China in the first place.

You have to be joking. Do you really think China's old fighters could deal with regional powers like Japan, India, South Korea, etc? They'd have no chance.

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Lol, and what makes you think they would get involved?

Did I say switch to another AA missile? No, I did not say that. So, you have no idea regarding the production capabilities of TW's missile production line and you just assume it's AA?

Wrong. The capability is kind small due to the requirement and it has to give way to other needs.

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And you think you do? By the way, anti radar version uses a different seeker.

It is an assumption that Taiwan could have copied the seekers or introduced their own substitute. Nonetheless its not really proven.

On the MICA, I would say I erred. The 400 something were R550s not MICA. The MICA EM is around 960.



China's order for R-77 by 2004, 300 had been delivered. As you can see it also mentions for Su-27SK. No idea what is the total. Note huge numbers of R-27s, over a half of which are R-27ER.




Jane's articles in question. Note that Jane's even have a specific contractor by name---Technocomplex.


JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - OCTOBER 08, 2003

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Chinese Su-27 upgrade funds Russian project
Robert Hewson Editor Jane's Air-Launched Weapons
Moscow and Beijing

Russia's Su-27SM fighter upgrade is being boosted by a parallel project to modify China's Su-27s to such an extent that Beijing could be underwriting the entire Russian effort, Jane's Defence Weekly sources indicate.

Developed by Sukhoi and the Technocomplex group of Russian avionics companies, the SM programme will give the 1980s-vintage Su-27 air-superiority fighter a combat capability roughly equivalent to that of the multirole Su-30MK. While it has made halting progress to date, Russia's air force has identified the Su-27SM as its number one acquisition priority and is expected to give the programme the go-ahead before the end of 2003. However, Technocomplex has confirmed that around 100 upgrade kits have already been delivered to China's People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) for use with its Su-27SKs and licence-built Shenyang J-11s.

The Su-27SM was displayed at Moscow's MAKS 2003 air show last August. The advanced cockpit features three colour multifunction displays (MFDs), plus improved radar, enhanced navigation and computer fits (the design is the first to integrate a MIL-STD 1553B databus with a Russian combat aircraft), an open-architecture system and an expanded weapons capability. Deliveries of up to 15 aircraft had been anticipated this year, but no more than three or four are now expected, due to difficulties in tying together the various funding streams behind the programme. This indicates that the project is relying on more than Russian State support for its success, and it has become evident that China is playing a central role in making the entire project a reality.

There are two Su-27SM demonstrator aircraft in Russia, yet on several occasions Sukhoi has referred to these as Su-27SKs - a designation previously associated only with those aircraft delivered to the PLAAF since 1992. By 1996, 36 KnAAPO-built Su-27SK fighters and 14 Su-27UBK trainers (from IAPO's line) had been acquired. The same year, Russia and China signed a deal that will see as many as 200 Su-27s built by Shenyang under the local designation J-11. It is believed that more than 100 J-11s have been delivered so far.

There have been consistent reports that China was developing a multirole upgrade for its Su-27s, which would allow them to better complement its more advanced Su-30MKK force. Until now, the scope of that upgrade programme had not been revealed. However, speaking to JDW at September's Aviation Expo/China 2003 show in Beijing, a Technocomplex spokesman described the Chinese Su-27 upgrade market as "huge", and said that his company had delivered "about 100 upgrade packages over the last two years". The Chinese upgrade draws on the same components as Russia's Su-27SM programme, apart from its use of just two MFDs in the cockpit, as in the Su-30MKK. Technocomplex is upgrading both single-seat and two-seat Su-27s for the PLAAF.

The scope of this upgrade work is another example of the integrated thinking that surrounds China's future fighter programmes, and the J-11 in particular. Having mastered basic airframe assembly, China now controls an upgrade package that will also allow it to integrate weapons and systems now under development.

Russian industry sources have also disclosed that China's engine makers are close to mastering the complex skills needed to build the Su-27's AL-31 powerplant - something that most observers had thought would be held under tight Russian control. If this proves to be the case, then China will have used the Su-27SK/J-11 project to establish a total systems capability for advanced combat aircraft in little more than 10 years.


JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - NOVEMBER 17, 2004

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China's Su-27s may fall short in capability
Robert Hewson Editor Jane's Air-Launched Weapons
Zhuhai, China

The Russian-supplied upgrade for China's licence-built fleet of Sukhoi Su-27SK single-seat fighter aircraft, produced by Shenyang as the J-11, is not as advanced or far-reaching as once believed, sources have told JDW.

Earlier reports suggested China was close to fielding upgraded Su-27SKs that delivered a level of multirole capability approaching that of People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) Su-30MKK aircraft.

To date only a limited new air-to-air capability has been added to the upgraded aircraft and China has not made meaningful steps towards producing an 'indigenised' Su-27 fitted with Chinese-built engines, weapons, radar or avionics. Furthermore, Russian industry sources have said that China is moving to halt J-11 production on the grounds that the design is out-dated and lacking in overall capability.

Upgrade work for China's J-11s began earlier this year under the leadership of Russia's Technocomplex group. Currently, "several 10s of aircraft" have been refitted under this programme, sources said. The main feature of this upgrade is centred around changes to the aircraft's Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design (NIIP) N-001 radar, that add the ability to fire the Vympel RVV-AE (Nato: AA-12 'Adder') active-radar air-to-air missile (AAM). The improved N-001VE can control a simultaneous engagement with two RVV-AE missiles.

The improved radar is not being built into aircraft on the production line. Instead, each J-11 produced by Shenyang has its radar shipped to Russia for upgrade by NIIP before being reinstalled by Chinese technicians. NIIP has offered several growth options for PLAAF J-11s including a further improved radar and the ability to launch the Kh-31 air-to-surface missile. None of these options have yet been taken up and the company says little interest has been expressed in acquiring a multirole J-11.

Neither are the upgraded J-11s compatible with China's own active-radar AAM, the PL-12 (SD-10).

According to NIIP, China has not asked for PL-12 integration and the company has been given no technical information on the missile's operating modes whatsoever. It has long been thought that PL-12 capability was a cornerstone of China's J-11 upgrade plans.

China is also understood to be developing its own advanced fire-control radars, perhaps to pair with the PL-12.

NIIP sources told JDW that, in their experience, local progress in radar development has been slow and China's capabilities still lag about 15 years behind the leading edge of radar technology.

China remains wholly reliant on Russia to supply the AL-31 engines that power both the J-11 and the Chengdu J-10 advanced fighter. JDW understands that supplier FSUE Salut is currently negotiating to provide a batch of 300 AL-31FN turbofans to support J-10 production.

People underestimate U.S. capability in submarine building. Remember that U.S. has never stopped building nuclear submarines, and that does give U.S. a basic level of competence despite the difficulties. In the end, submarine is a dead issue anyway. Not worth discussing unless Taiwan actually passes the budget.

ROCAF’s pilot number is no longer a problem, although the way it was solved does raise some questions.

Airspace does affect the training, but ROCAF probably has much more advanced ACMI equipment than PLAAF. The upgrade has been completed, and the new system has less restrictions (think of it as mini-Red Flag capable). In terms of pure air-to-air combat trainings, ROCAF is in no way inferior (attack trainings, base transitions and others would be a different story). There are several less-known ROCAF initiatives in trainings, ROCAF is usually unwilling to share this type of information. Mirage pilots do have exchange programs, even if it is a much smaller scale one than the one at Luke AFB, AZ. ECM trainings could be done on the eastern Islands outside Taiwan, the problem is not civilian traffic but of political concerns and military classification.

So far PLAAF international exercise is still very limited. It remains to be seen anyone other than Russia would be willing to conduct joint exercises with PLAAF. This is in stark contrast with Indian Air Force, which also did not have a lot of international exercise before but quickly conducted many with different nations. In current situation, PLAAF and ROCAF are both relatively isolated, neither is better.

TC-2’s planned production is 250, not 200. The initial AIM-120 order had the “option” of 200 but only 120 was ordered. BTW, if R-27 is included with Su-27, then the several hundred AIM-7s should also be included with F-16.

No, other than an starter package of missiles, the vast majority of R-27s did not came with the Su-27 order. A large majority of the missiles were in fact, ordered from the Ukraine, so these were true SU stock, not the export version which was sold to China by Russia.

The SIPRI database is only up to 2004. The R-77 was made in 2000, and 300 was delivered as of the time the document was made. That means 100 missiles were delivered each year. You can refer to the size of the R-27 orders in relation to the Su-27 orders in order to give you a ratio between plane and missile.

How did the ROCAF pilot issue got solved in the way it raised questions?

Now what is reserve issue for PLAAF? I don't take it that someone in the Internet should decide what is considered reserve for the PLAAF and what is not. All you need to do is find out what PLAAF's orbat is and its policy to see what is reserve or not. Every Military Region command is considered frontline, and the majority of them is located in the East Coast. Lanzhou MR is considered the PLAAF's strategic reserve, or which nothing is really worthwhile there, except for two divisions, the 6th and the 37th. The 6th has a regiment of Su-27s, and it is speculated this is where the older Su-27s have gone to stay as frontline regiments moved to the newer J-11s with fresh airframes. The 37th has a regiment of J-7Gs and presumably another regiment of J-8F. The rest of the regiments are J-7B/E.

Obviously,I think PRC is trying to use Air force to overwhelm ROC and prevent a costly war in terms of human resources and financially... It is also upgrading its 2nd artillery and the fact of PRC possessing accurate Ballistic missiles is interesting and debatable.

We cannot also discount off the factor PLA may have many pin point accurate cruise missiles in stock to utilise on Taiwan scenario. The hard fact that Pakistan already possess cruise missiles like Babur with range of 700km might prove China has equavaleint or even better..

Another factor,we need to look in is the PLAAF growing interest in heavy air lift capabilties. 38 IL-76 waiting to be delivered and CAAC openly declare going to develop an indigenous heavy air lift transporter clearly show PLA intend in using air power as the decisive means to capture ROC if needed...

I bumped into this today. Not sure if it has been posted before:


I think it's probably just speculation and some models...

Taiwan Holds Computer War Game
By Wendell Minnick, TAIPEI


Taiwan has concluded the first phase of its annual Han Kuang 23 (Han Glory) military exercises by conducting a computer war game simulation under the watchful eye of a visiting U.S. military delegation led by retired Adm. Dennis Blair.

Held every April and May, the exercise is divided into computer war games and military exercises.

The computer war games were conducted April 9-13 simultaneously by the Joint Operation Command Center, Joint Operations Exercise and Training Center, and various tactical command posts, a Ministry of National Defense (MND) press release stated.

The Joint Operations Command Center is at Hengshan Mountain, one of the most secretive military installations in Taiwan. Civilian and military leaders would conduct war from inside Hengshan, a hollowed out mountain north of Taipei.

The computer simulation was unique this year. At an MND press conference on April 17, Marine Corp Lt. Gen. Hsu Tai-sheng, commander of the Joint Operations Exercise and Training Doctrine Development Office, said the simulation is set in 2012 and begins when Chinese military forces invade central Taiwan after initiating an air and naval blockade. Taipei, risking capture, launches a massive missile attack on Chinese military bases and facilities in Fujian Province.

The strike would give Taiwan more time to resupply and repel the invaders. The attack would also allow time for U.S. military forces to join in the defense of Taiwan.

Hsu would not describe the type of missile used in the scenario, offering only the description “tactical shore-based missile for fire suppression.” At present, Taiwan has no ballistic or cruise missile capability that could be used for precision strikes on mainland China.

A military source at the press conference confirmed that the missile was the Hsiung Feng 2E (Brave Wind) land attack cruise missile, now under development with the military-run Chungshan Institute of Science and Technology.

The Hsiung Feng 2E has been in development for five years and has suffered problems involving propulsion and guidance. Unconfirmed local Chinese-language media reports of HF-2E missile tests have been consistently denied by the MND.



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