Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

kliu0 said:

Taiwan does have the money to procure next generation aircraft, as Taiwan has repeatedly tried to purchase the F-35 and participate in the programme. It is estimated that the cost per aircraft would be around $80 million which would be cheaper, a fifth generation fighter, stealth, VSTOL and more capable basically outclassing the Rafale in almost every criteria. I think Rafales would be feasible if the maintenance costs are lower. That could be negotiated potentially, if the French are desperate to export the Rafale.

If Taiwan does manage to purchase the F-16 C/Ds and upgrade the exisiting F-16 A/Bs to C/D standard. They should be in the clear for the next 5-10 years, given that half of the F-CK 1 A/B fleet is already being upgraded to C/D standard with the rest expected to follow suit. The Mirage upgrade isn't a biggie right now.

Click to expand...

That s what I don t understand so far. Many people seem hypnotized by stealth fighters generation. In USA, the US Secretary Defence said he would stop the production line for the F-22, extremely costly, dozen of billions spent for less than 200 planes. Perhaps you don t know how costly this kind of program is.

All in all, who can afford a stealth generation fighter program now? Except RPC, I don t see clearly... Behind leaflets shown and other marketing presentations of industrials pushing arm deals as fast as possible, there are a lot of additional maintenance and a few questions about the ability/skills of these planes in the sky.

About the F-35 partnership, just ask well informed people in Norway with their F-35, that would be limited in performance. We even can t say whether this light version of the stealth fighter will be as capable as both a Typhoon or Rafale at their best standards, available now!

You also said that France is not eager to sell spare parts for the Mirage fleet... but are americans eager to sell F-16 C/D to Taiwan? I am not so sure in our economic context and a huge political pressure of China over USA and also France. And we are still waiting for any big deal!

Deleted

F-35 cheaper than both the Rafale or Eurofighter Typhoon programs? I definitely dont think so! :rofl:

You said the F-35 is superior to F-22, but you meant F-35 for the USA, not the F-35 version for exportation, that would be with a limited package and performance, but still so costly...

What a good deal, you belong to a foreign partnership, fund good part of the program and you receive a "light" F-35 in exchange...

About a possible F-16 C/D deal, I wouldn t be so sure, if I were you... how long are we waiting for it since the first taiwanese request? And this time, the chinese reaction would be more than epidermic, i guess!

Deleted

kliu0 said:

Given that the estimated cost is of the F-35 is $80 million (could differ depending upon factors ranging between $65-$120) million per aircraft and the Rafale is $82-$90 million per aircraft, then the F-35 would be cheaper (if it is at the lower half of its price range), either way it is more capable...

Click to expand...

Wrong.

a few examples:

Rafale and Typhoon are more manoeuvrable compared to the F-35. They are also fully multi-role fighters (actual Typhoon probably less that the Rafale F3+). JSF F-35 is not the jack-of-all-trades. And I am pretty sure that the ROCAF is looking for solid multi role capabilities for the fleets.

About the cost: Just a few weeks ago Missoury Senator Kit Bond told that it is now more than $150 million for each Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). In 2009 we are far away of your estimation kliu0...

Some voices also say that the whole program is still in real danger.

ff I close the discussion about this JSF aircraft of which we cannot say, for now, that it s more capable to any other 4-4.5 generation aircraft given that this one will be (or won't be) available in time at its best Block.

Like you I am waiting for the F-16 C/D deal. But US administration doesn t mention it as a priority now. It s just one for TW/USA lobbyists.

CONTRACTS (21.7.09)

NAVY

Northrop Grumman Systems Corp., Bethpage, N.Y., is being awarded a $154,100,000 Undefinitized Contract Action (UCA) for the upgrade of six Taiwan Air Force (TAF) E-2C aircraft from Group II configuration to Hawkeye 2000 (H2K) export configuration under the Foreign Military Sales Program. Work will be performed in Bethpage, N.Y. (40 percent); St. Augustine, Fla. (22 percent); Rolling Meadows, Ill. (6 percent); Dayton, Ohio (6 percent); Windsor Locks, Conn. (5 percent); Greenlawn, N.Y. (4 percent); Mississauga, Canada (4 percent); Marlboro, Mass. (4 percent); and other various locations throughout the United States (9 percent); and is expected to be completed in June 2013. Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This contract was not competitively procured. The Naval Air Systems Command, Patuxent River, Md. is the contracting activity (N00019-09-C-0040).

Click to expand...

Hawkeye upgrades contract awarded.

Deleted

kliu0 said:

Taiwan's options include, if they are all available include:
1. Produce more IDF C/Ds --- Very expensive to rehire staff, restart production lines not to mention acquiring new engines etc etc since they are no longer produced, eats up budget and causes delays to other programs etc. But signals in an improvement of the Taiwan's defense industry.

Click to expand...

Other than trainer variants, there's probably no point in building more IDF's with the same old engine. So the "upgraded" engine (TFE-1088-12?) cost is unavoidable.

On the up side, a more powerful engine could possibly be retrofitted to existing aircraft?

I still think AIDC got the short end of the stick when the government cut the IDF order.

The report of the Taiwan Policy Working Group is a strange mix of statements completely detached from reality (“Taiwan should be able to mount an effective defense and should be able to continue to fight on its own in a drawn-out conflict,” protracted war alone against China!??) and decidedly more sober analysis ("“Should the PRC attempt to physically occupy Taiwan, the ROC military should be prepared to repel an amphibious invasion; sustain an organized ground defense under central authority further inland; and in a worst-case scenario, be prepared for decentralized resistance,”). (At least a daring plan, surely North Korea could fight like that! )

Interestingly even William Murray questioned the hollow fallacies of Blumenthal et al. regarding the necessity of additional expensive F-16D for ROCAF turning instantly into sitting ducks for several thousand PLA ballistic and cruise missiles at the beginning of a conflict.

Moreover any deterrence capabilities against ´coercive action´ by the PRC will ultimately depend on Taiwan's economic resources but current dynamics are dramatically advantageous for the mainland (in '09: +8.5% GNP PRC vs. -4% GNP ROC, GNP ratio PRC:ROC nominally 10:1/ in PPP 18:1). Furthermore regarding the heavy dependence of Taiwan's industry on trade and investments with the mainland the inevitable question would be how Taiwan's economy at all could be effectively mobilized during a war crisis without first of all succumbing to a crippling collapse paralyzing any serious defense effort?

William Murray, a China expert at the Naval War College, also present at the launch, questioned Taiwan’s need for more F-16s.

“On the modern battlefield, if you can hide you can survive. But if you are a fixed target you probably face destruction. So, I wonder how aircraft runways can survive in Taiwan. The question is, ‘how do you get them to survive the initial bombardment?’ If you can’t protect the runways, I am not sure what the F-16s do. I agree that the F-16 itself can be survivable but without a runway it is not flyable. I don’t know that it’s the best thing for Taiwan,” Murray said.

Click to expand...

In terms of Taiwan's defence, this point raise here is critical. I wonder if the authors of the report had an answer when Murray made this point?