Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Semi-Lobster

Junior Member
The Taiwanese will be able to upgrade regular AV-8B Harrier II's into the Harrier II + configuration; there are differences in the avionics fit and of course the radar. The USMC was upgrading part of their existing fleet into the AV-8B+ standard with the rest turned into the Night Attack variant, which upgraded the avionics so it was NVG compatible, plus a FLIR. Of course, regular AV-8B Harrier II's no longer exist in the USMC inventory, as all are either Night Attack or Harrier II + standard.

As you stated, theres no need to upgrade the AV-8B Harrier II because there are none, they all have already been upgraded to the + variant, the only airforces that operate the vanilla Harrier II are Italy and Spain, but IMO, gvien the timeline we are talking about (2015-2020), the already modest electronics capabilities of the + variant would be considered archaic (the radar is the single track AGP-65 which are getting very old). In addition the stress on VSTOL fighters would mean that the airframe itself would need to be refurbished. To extend the lifetime of any Harrier II, an engine refit is also most likely in order with new Pegasus 11-61/Mk.107s and within the next half decade or more a newer variat could be developed as well.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
I don't really think that the Harrier is a good solution to Taiwan's fighter gap problem. By the time it would come into service it would be obsolete. I seriously doubt that the Harrier would fare very well against J-10s and J-11s. As already stated its electronics are getting old and the airframes themselves are prone to stress. Furthermore inducting the AV-8B into the force proved to be quite a problem for the USMC; it is difficult to fly and has a tendency to crash. Through analyzing their mistakes and training the pilots they were able to correct this but Taiwan might face similar problems.

Perhaps it is better than nothing but I would prefer for Taiwan to try to produce its own indigenous fighter that is more up-to-date and possibly/probably would end up in service quicker. I just feel like the Harrier would end up being another costly boondoggle that failed to meet Taiwan's actual needs (a fighter that can mix it up and prevent China from gaining air superiority for at least a while and can hit the invasion fleet.)
 

Semi-Lobster

Junior Member
I don't really think that the Harrier is a good solution to Taiwan's fighter gap problem. By the time it would come into service it would be obsolete. I seriously doubt that the Harrier would fare very well against J-10s and J-11s. As already stated its electronics are getting old and the airframes themselves are prone to stress. Furthermore inducting the AV-8B into the force proved to be quite a problem for the USMC; it is difficult to fly and has a tendency to crash. Through analyzing their mistakes and training the pilots they were able to correct this but Taiwan might face similar problems.

Perhaps it is better than nothing but I would prefer for Taiwan to try to produce its own indigenous fighter that is more up-to-date and possibly/probably would end up in service quicker. I just feel like the Harrier would end up being another costly boondoggle that failed to meet Taiwan's actual needs (a fighter that can mix it up and prevent China from gaining air superiority for at least a while and can hit the invasion fleet.)

The main idea behind the Harrier II+ I believe is that of an attack aircraft that can operate from anywhere and represent an attack detterance against mainland Chinese naval forces in the event of an invasion, its value as a fighter on the other hand is rather dubious, as it is not a fighter, it would be a sitting duck to frankly any other fighter aircraft, in the PLANAF inventory. The idea of turning the 737th Tactical Fighter Wing in an attack wing would require major restructing of the ROCAF.

I honestly don't think AIDC has had the time, funding or manpower anymore to simply draw up a new aircraft design, procure the components and then produce test aircraft fast enough to replace the F-5E, more Ching-Kuos (C/D variant) would simply be the easiest and least painful solution, especially considering it would only be for 60ish aircraft unless the ROCAF are serious about the Mirage 2000-5 retirement due to cost, which would require another ~60 aircraft to replace those, which in that case, would at least provide AIDC with enough government support to actually design a replacement for their F-16A/Bs within the coming decades. Simply buying more foriegn aircraft will only be a short term solution, especially refurbished aircraft like the A-4SU Super Skyhawk whos service lasted less than 10 years.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
But I believe that the retirement of Mirage 2000-5 is a mistake

kliu, do you have access to some private news source, because I never understand where you get these comments from.

The article said Taiwan might mothball Mirages. You know what the difference is between that and what you said, right?
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
As you stated, theres no need to upgrade the AV-8B Harrier II because there are none, they all have already been upgraded to the + variant, the only airforces that operate the vanilla Harrier II are Italy and Spain, but IMO, gvien the timeline we are talking about (2015-2020), the already modest electronics capabilities of the + variant would be considered archaic (the radar is the single track AGP-65 which are getting very old). In addition the stress on VSTOL fighters would mean that the airframe itself would need to be refurbished. To extend the lifetime of any Harrier II, an engine refit is also most likely in order with new Pegasus 11-61/Mk.107s and within the next half decade or more a newer variat could be developed as well.

The APG-65 is taken straight off the F/A-18A/B Hornet, and many of the early Hornet's in service in Australian and Canadian service has had their radars replaced by the APG-73. Theoretically, the APG-73 could be moved onto the Harrier's, and an avionics modernization program can take place, as the primary targets would be the mission computer and the stores management system. However with the latter, the USMC is upgrading their Harriers with a MIL-STD-1760 bus system which would allow the carriage of more smart weapons.

The airframes would otherwise need refurbishment, but, given the time constraints and costs, it will be cheaper to do such an upgrade compared to developing a brand new VSTOL fighter.

Furthermore inducting the AV-8B into the force proved to be quite a problem for the USMC; it is difficult to fly and has a tendency to crash. Through analyzing their mistakes and training the pilots they were able to correct this but Taiwan might face similar problems.

This has seems to be the case with the USMC, but with the RAF and Fleet Air Arm, crashes are less frequent. The reasons suggested why is that British Harrier pilots have backgrounds flying helicopters before, and that the British purchased their two seater Harriers at the same time as the single seaters, while the USMC only purchased two seaters after their single seaters.

Simply buying more foriegn aircraft will only be a short term solution, especially refurbished aircraft like the A-4SU Super Skyhawk whos service lasted less than 10 years.

What needs to be avoided are radical upgrades of very old aircraft; the A-4SU's are an example of that. For the Singaporeans, getting 31 years of service out of the A-4 is impressive, but the original airframe is well over 30 years of age.

The CF-18 Hornet Incremental Modernization Project is more of what is being looked at, with the key focus being avionics modernization and airframe refurbishment. It is expected that with the upgrades, the CF-18 Hornet will be viable until 2017-2020, when a replacement for the Hornets will be sought.
 

Aero_Wing_32

Junior Member
"But I believe that the retirement of Mirage 2000-5 is a mistake"

:rofl:
With an obsolete F-5 fleet, good to be replaced asap, how can it be possible to consider a mothball of the Mirage 2000-5 fleet? Still one of the best aircrafts at air to air combats? Even a F-16 killer! That s quite a nonsense! Continue like this and the next step would be a simple dismantling of the ROCAF...

If some of you heard this from people, even from military executives closed to US military interests, you can consider this as a trully irresponsible view for the trends given to the ROCAF and taiwanese security for the next decade. These weird allegations also could come from PRC waves that are now trying to weaken Taiwan ROC and its identity, in every aspect, from political, military, to cultural ones...
 
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