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adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
anyway, is EF2K's combat range enough to reach anywhere in China or Taiwan strait even from Okinawa?

I'm sure the Typhoon's combat radius can reach Taiwan from Okinawa easily, but not to China's interior. PRC has strategic depth, Taiwan and Japan doesn't.

There are many articles on Typhoon's cost over-runs on the web. I suspect the Saudis got a discount on their purchase. I'm also not convinced that Japan would buy the Typhoon. The Japanese may leverage Typhoon in a competition to extract better deal from the US, and the US would do much to keep S. Korea and Japan within its arms export sphere.

In the unlikely event that Japan does buy the Typhoon, they'd probably end up with air-defense version (improved Trench I?) that can fire harpoons. This is due to Japan's SDF "self defense" policy of no strategic bombers.

At this point, the chance of Typhoon, Rafael, or even F-35 being exported to ROC is near zero.



Totally irrelevant... the US has a relationship with China that some have even called, "strategic partnership," or at the very least both are economically and strategically dependent on the other.

It's realpolitik. We're moving OT so I'll make it short. IMO sooner or later Japan will lean toward a realistic/practical policy, shifting from using Taiwan as means to contain Chinese "expansion" into the Pacific, to accepting China's "entry" to the Pacific as inevitable. They'll seek to cooperate where possible and agree to disagree otherwise. Thus whatever combat jet the Japanese buy is irreverent in the long term, as Taiwan cannot depend on them for defense perpetually.

ROC/Taiwan must find its own way to deal with the status quo, instead of relying on table scraps and bread crumbs from the US. If the government had funded AIDC better for IDF upgrades, we'd probably see better quality, super-cruise capable IDF's (TFE-1088-12 engine) flying long before the F-16 C/D is ever delivered. Instead, AIDC had to fight for mere millions for small upgrades while the government throws billions at foreign imports. ;p Where's the love for domestic industry?
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Typhoon ain't cheap either, it's a superb aircraft, but comes down to it, it's no F22

But it's cheaper than the F-22 and available.

is EF2K's combat range enough to reach anywhere in China or Taiwan strait even from Okinawa?

Yes.

consider how many F15j Japan have currently, even if all are replaced by EF2k, the number is still limited compared to Chinese AF advanced jet

The F-4s need replacing first. Then the F-15Js (and eventually the F-2s).

Totally irrelevant... the US has a relationship with China that some have even called, "strategic partnership," or at the very least both are economically and strategically dependent on the other.

Actually it is your comment that is irrelevant. I was addressing the matter of technological security.

Once stealth features, a better engine, and most importantly a more impotent electronics suite (three main features that put the EF in a different league from the J-10) is added to the next-generation J-10, the qualitative gap will be much narrower.

I disagree. The Typhoon will retain technological superiority over an updated J-10 - and that assumes such an upgrade goes to plan.

Most importantly, China has the ability of local manufacturing while Japan has to rely on waiting for arms deals- meaning delays and the inability to procure as much as they would like to.

BUZZ! Wrong answer. If you had been following the Japan-Typhoon saga you'd know that it has been offered local assembly and a special fit to suit the ASDF.

There are many articles on Typhoon's cost over-runs on the web. I suspect the Saudis got a discount on their purchase.

Assuming you're right (I don't think you are), why wouldn't Japan get one as well? Member states want sales, and they know Japan can buy elsewhere. They'll offer best price and, as mentioned elsewhere, local assembly, custom-made fit, etc to sweeten the deal.

In the unlikely event that Japan does buy the Typhoon, they'd probably end up with air-defense version (improved Trench I?) that can fire harpoons. This is due to Japan's SDF "self defense" policy of no strategic bombers.

As far as I know the ASDF's F-2s have air-to-ground weapons so there'd be no reason not to have a fully-fledged Typhoon.

IMO sooner or later Japan will lean toward a realistic/practical policy, shifting from using Taiwan as means to contain Chinese "expansion" into the Pacific, to accepting China's "entry" to the Pacific as inevitable. They'll seek to cooperate where possible and agree to disagree otherwise.

Why would Japan give China a strangehold over its oil imports? That will happen if Taiwan is handed over. If anything it is practical to give Taiwan support.

However, It offers great capabilities in Air-air combats, but not that much in Air to ground ones.

That was the case with Tranche 1, but Tranche 2 and 3 have great air-to-ground capabilities.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Anyway, let's focus on Taiwan. What might await the JASDF is a very interesting question, but we should save it for the Japanese thread. Otherwise this is going to get very messy.
 

Aero_Wing_32

Junior Member
Does it mean that a Typhoon Tranche 3 reaches or overtakes the capabilities of the Rafale F3? I don t think so, Pal and hard to know in fact. But for sure these 2 jets would be excellent for the ROCAF in front of a more modernized China Airforce. I don t know whether the (unofficial) contact/discussions between France and Taiwan are still going on now. Hard to know (again :p)...
 
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adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
Assuming you're right (I don't think you are), why wouldn't Japan get one as well? Member states want sales, and they know Japan can buy elsewhere. They'll offer best price and, as mentioned elsewhere, local assembly, custom-made fit, etc to sweeten the deal.

As far as I know the ASDF's F-2s have air-to-ground weapons so there'd be no reason not to have a fully-fledged Typhoon.

Early 2008 estimates place Typhoon project cost over-run at 10 billion EUR. The Saudis will probably not be asked to pay more to share the overall cost.

The Mitsubishi F-1, F-2, and the F-15J are equipped with anti-ship missiles, free fall bombs, IR guided bombs, and rockets. They're not equipped with LGB's or air to ground cruise missiles.

The JSDF policy is defensive, as such Japanese Navy ships are not equipped with Tomahawk cruise missiles. in the unlikely even that the Typhoon is purchased, it will not come with weapons like the Storm Shadow or Tauru KEPD 350. Even laser designator pods from Tranche 2 is questionable.

Also, I expect Tranche 3 development to be delayed due to cost over-runs.


Anyway, let's focus on Taiwan. What might await the JASDF is a very interesting question, but we should save it for the Japanese thread. Otherwise this is going to get very messy.


Agreed -- it's highly doubtful that the ROCAF would get the Typhoon anyway.



There is no love for the domestic industry. At least under this administration, the former was throwing money at the domestic industry.

Chiang Ching-Kuo, yes. Chen, no. Chiang Ching Kuo threw money at big domestic projects, like the "14 major constructions", "10 major constructions", "12 new developments", and so on. Most of these were targeted at improving infrastructure and building domestic industry, such as CSBC shipyard, China Steel Corp, AIDC/CSIST, Hsinchu Science and Industrial Park, etc.

The result of these investments, domestic aerospace and ship building industry producing assorted turboprop trainers, AT-3 jet, F-5E assembly, UH-1 assembly, Cheng Kung class frigate, various weapons, Sky Bow SAM, etc.

I understand that it's unrealistic to expect Taiwan's domestic industry to match against first rate world powers. But the same can be said for Korea, and KAI assembled their KF-16 C/D's. If AIDC can assemble F-5E and IDF, why not F-16's? Not only did AIDC get left out of F-16 A/B project, the IDF order was cut by half. What?!
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Gentlemen, If you want to discuss the capablities of the Typhoon feel free to start a thread on the subject. Other wise post ROC military news in this thread.

bd popeye super moderator
 

yehe

Junior Member
Chiang Ching-Kuo, yes. Chen, no. Chiang Ching Kuo threw money at big domestic projects, like the "14 major constructions", "10 major constructions", "12 new developments", and so on. Most of these were targeted at improving infrastructure and building domestic industry, such as CSBC shipyard, China Steel Corp, AIDC/CSIST, Hsinchu Science and Industrial Park, etc.

The result of these investments, domestic aerospace and ship building industry producing assorted turboprop trainers, AT-3 jet, F-5E assembly, UH-1 assembly, Cheng Kung class frigate, various weapons, Sky Bow SAM, etc.

I understand that it's unrealistic to expect Taiwan's domestic industry to match against first rate world powers. But the same can be said for Korea, and KAI assembled their KF-16 C/D's. If AIDC can assemble F-5E and IDF, why not F-16's? Not only did AIDC get left out of F-16 A/B project, the IDF order was cut by half. What?!

Agree to that, most of the infrastructural and industrial base of todays Taiwan is either planned, invested or build by Chiang Ching-Kuo, Taiwan's educational and technological base is also toltally built up during the two Chiang time, wasn't really any higher educations in Taiwan before that, ofc that is because of many of the intellectuals from China who fleed the Communist mainland with the KMT to Taiwan along with alot of rich capitalist families and some industries that they could move.
And you could say even Taiwan's democratic progress is really started by Chiang Ching-Kuo.

Anyway, LeeDengHui at least did follow the footsteps and plans(well, most of it) of Chiang Ching-Kuo, but Chen really did nothing except for create political tumoil imo.

The IDF is a nice fighter, if you upgrade the radar, avionics and engine, then modify it to shoot AMRAAMs, it could have been another Jas39 Gripen, considering that the IDF Ching-Kuo was put in service alot ealier than J10a, it could have been alot more than what it is today. Such a pity that many of the engineers that were involved in IDF project couldn't find a job and were bought cheaply by the Skoreans to share the knowhow in the Korean Advanced Trainer jet T-50 program.
 
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Actually it is your comment that is irrelevant. I was addressing the matter of technological security.

That still makes your comment irrelevant since you were commenting on the balance of power/status quo, not technological security. ;)

They'll offer best price and, as mentioned elsewhere, local assembly, custom-made fit, etc to sweeten the deal.

Local assembly means production on kits... the number of aircraft produced is still dependent on foreign delivery.

I disagree. The Typhoon will retain technological superiority over an updated J-10 - and that assumes such an upgrade goes to plan.

I agree, the Typhoon will still be superior. But right now the J-10 is not even in the same league as Typhoon... given that China will enjoy numerical superiority of at least 3:1 against any potential operators of EF-2000 in the region, China can still afford a technological disadvantage. Anyhow, I best stop discussing the Typhoon now that Popeye stepped in... last thing I want to do is to annoy the old sailor haha.
 
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adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
The IDF is a nice fighter, if you upgrade the radar, avionics and engine, then modify it to shoot AMRAAMs, it could have been another Jas39 Gripen, considering that the IDF Ching-Kuo was put in service alot ealier than J10a, it could have been alot more than what it is today. Such a pity that many of the engineers that were involved in IDF project couldn't find a job and were bought cheaply by the Skoreans to share the knowhow in the Korean Advanced Trainer jet T-50 program.

I'm very interested in any info you might have on the engineers being sent to S. Korea. As I understand it, AIDC built luxury residential complex for foreign contractors during the IDF project. After the project concluded, the foreign contractors went home. Did they end up going to S. Korea? Were any Taiwanese engineers hired by the Koreans?

I'd like to see a contract for up to 120 IDF LIFT trainers awarded to AIDC, to replace F-5 and AT-3 for training missions. AIDC deserves at least that much.

If anyone is interested, here's a list of AIDC aircrafts:
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IDF upgrade program video:
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