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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Agreed that the shoot-the-archer strategy may be the best defense against them. But it would be much harder to target and rapidly neutralize them if they're road mobile or under hardened bunkers vis-a-vis aircraft that require substantial logistical infrastructure. This dramatically shortens the window to optimally minimize the BM threat following the opening stages of a hypothetical Taiwan conflict. And that is not entertaining the possibility of Taiwanese BMs being scattered and hidden beforehand (e.g. as a natural response in a period of heightened tensions).

Once that window passes, you're left with costly and ineffective "Scud hunting" strategies that were of mixed results during the Gulf War. Of course, Taiwan's limited geography offers a slightly different playing field in this scenario.
ROC attacking back is just being funny. Taiwan island is too small for anything to effectively hide and still be used. The entire island will be lit up by radar and nothing is going to get far off the ground before it has 85 things targeting it. And again, Taiwan island is too small and too easy to saturate with an offensive; everything is going to get hit and nothing is going to effectively hide unless it's buried somewhere just to survive, never to fight.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
If it was Taiwan in particular, arguably rapid offensive shoot-the-archer doctrine might actually be viable in this case, given the system of systems mismatch and geographical proximity here.
Doesn't work terribly well against Hezballah.
Mobile launchers, vegetation/cities and extensive underground infrastructure in mountainous regions make it difficult to execute.

Plus, one really has to have something wrong in their heads to target civilians the way Israel does. Add at least some caution and proportionality check - and it becomes more difficult still.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
ROC attacking back is just being funny. Taiwan island is too small for anything to effectively hide and still be used. The entire island will be lit up by radar and nothing is going to get far off the ground before it has 85 things targeting it. And again, Taiwan island is too small and too easy to saturate with an offensive; everything is going to get hit and nothing is going to effectively hide unless it's buried somewhere just to survive, never to fight.

Being "too small" (whatever that means) doesn't prevent them from utilizing a hard-to-track offensive weapon to launch retaliatory attacks. Just as the proximity of the mainland to Taiwan offers the former the advantage of surprise, it also gives China much less time to respond to missiles going the other way. Your premise that most of these launches will be targeted may be true but there will likely be missiles that slip through the cracks; you saw what a mere 15-20 BMs could do to an airbase like Nevatim. Another question is the effectiveness of Chinese BMD systems (HQ-19, DN-3, HQ-9B, etc.) against these missiles.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Agreed that the shoot-the-archer strategy may be the best defense against them. But it would be much harder to target and rapidly neutralize them if they're road mobile or under hardened bunkers vis-a-vis aircraft that require substantial logistical infrastructure. This dramatically shortens the window to optimally minimize the BM threat following the opening stages of a hypothetical Taiwan conflict. And that is not entertaining the possibility of Taiwanese BMs being scattered and hidden beforehand (e.g. as a natural response in a period of heightened tensions).

Once that window passes, you're left with costly and ineffective "Scud hunting" strategies that were of mixed results during the Gulf War. Of course, Taiwan's limited geography offers a slightly different playing field in this scenario.

Those are just the usual caveats of "shoot the archer," but which are significantly diminished in the specific Taiwan contingency, for three main reasons:
- proximity; Taiwan is just so close to the mainland, that the PLA's ability to conduct offensive and defensive missions, as well as surveilling and striking pop-up targets even after conflict occurs, will be far greater than almost any other sort of similar "ballistic missile TEL hunting" in history, assuming they are not all knocked out in the opening rounds of conflict
- lack of strategic depth; Taiwan is so small, that the resources to actually surveil, identify and track locations and TELs is far less demanding
- system of systems overmatch in all domains; that is to say, Taiwan pulling a reverse uno wrt ballistic missiles is unlikely in context of superior PLA scale and sophistication of that domain and every other offensive and defensive and sensor domain

None of this is to say that it doesn't make sense for the PLA to have a robust missile defense system (though it's the US which is more of the reference threat), and by all accounts they have developed/are developing it.

But the notion that Taiwan developing "hard to track" ballistic missile TELs seems to pretend that the PLA doesn't already have the intent and capability to surveil, track and strike at smaller, more mobile ground based targets as part of their overall requirements for conducting a Taiwan contingency.


I suppose if one really wants to take something away from this Iranian strike and apply it to the Taiwan contingency, it is that Iran lacked many of the advantages that the PLA would have (supporting aerial fixed wing launched fires, CM fires, EW, ISR, BDA, CAP) -- while Israel possessed many advantages which Taiwan would not have (significant distance from launch sites to targets, friendly defenses between launch sites to targets, technological overmatch, intelligence overmatch).


Doesn't work terribly well against Hezballah.
Mobile launchers, vegetation/cities and extensive underground infrastructure in mountainous regions make it difficult to execute.

Plus, one really has to have something wrong in their heads to target civilians the way Israel does. Add at least some caution and proportionality check - and it becomes more difficult still.

Not directly relevant to what I'm describing, considering Israel's success against Hezbollah, and the forces Hezbollah has in play versus the targets the PLA would go after in a Taiwan contingency.
 
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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Being "too small" (whatever that means) doesn't prevent them from utilizing a hard-to-track offensive weapon to launch retaliatory attacks.
Yeah it does. Being small means it's not too hard to track and even if it's not perfectly pinpointed, area defense becomes very easy. Try finding marble in a shoebox. Now try finding it in a dumpster.
Just as the proximity of the mainland to Taiwan offers the former the advantage of surprise, it also gives China much less time to respond to missiles going the other way.
If they can even survive a radar-saturated hostile environment while they are in slow launch phase, which is barely possible.
Your premise that most of these launches will be targeted may be true but there will likely be missiles that slip through the cracks; you saw what a mere 15-20 BMs could do to an airbase like Nevatim.
1. If they want the PLA to intensify strikes and lower the threshold of certainty between civilian and military, they can try to slip a few through.

2. Iran is massive. Israel is small. You have it the other way around. Missles are slow and easy to intercept on launch, fastest and hardest to hit in terminal phase. Your analogy is more like if Israel could only launch missiles from Nevatim towards Iran, AND Iran was right next to them with radar and launchers lighting up the entire area, then how many could make their way towards Iran?

3. There's no scenerio where ROC starts the attack. PLA will initiate so there wouldn't likely even be an air base left by the time the ROC even starts thinking about fighting back.
Another question is the effectiveness of Chinese BMD systems (HQ-19, DN-3, HQ-9B, etc.) against these missiles.
Psshhht LOL. The real question is if any of ROCs missiles even work. Looking at the quality of ROC's military exercises, targeting them is more likely wasting an interceptor. Probably prevented it from spinning around and falling on somebody's house in Taipei without exploding LOL
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
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3. There's no scenerio where ROC starts the attack. PLA will initiate so there wouldn't likely even be an air base left by the time the ROC even starts thinking about fighting back.

Psshhht LOL. The real question is if any of ROCs missiles even work. Looking at the quality of ROC's military exercises, targeting them is more likely wasting an interceptor. Probably prevented it from spinning around and falling on somebody's house in Taipei without exploding LOL

Realistically, in an actual conflict it is unlikely either the PLA or ROC will be fully able to capture strategic surprise or even operational level surprise, given a conflict is unlikely to occur out of the blue without any preceding political tensions being very apparent (causing a corresponding rise in military readiness etc).

It is also plausible that ROC offensive capabilities (even today, in the form of some cruise missiles and possibly a number of ballistic missiles) may be able to let off some shots off in the early phases of conflict, however single salvo size is likely to be limited and repeat salvos likely difficult to achieve if the PLA are able to capitalize on their system of systems fires/sensor/air dominance.

It's possible that in the initial phases, some ROC missiles are able to leak through PLA air and missile defenses, but that's just part of fighting a modern war. It is the ability of both sides to prosecute targets on each side at scale, precision, and conducting repeat strikes which matters and that's unlikely to change much to be relevant for ROC warfighting plans.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Realistically, in an actual conflict it is unlikely either the PLA or ROC will be fully able to capture strategic surprise or even operational level surprise, given a conflict is unlikely to occur out of the blue without any preceding political tensions being very apparent (causing a corresponding rise in military readiness etc).
Yeah, but intimidation factor means that ROC will absolutely not be throwing any first punches and will only be responding to them, which means they will start swinging after they've taken haymakers to the face while PLA starts swinging fresh.
It is also plausible that ROC offensive capabilities (even today, in the form of some cruise missiles and possibly a number of ballistic missiles) may be able to let off some shots off in the early phases of conflict, however single salvo size is likely to be limited and repeat salvos likely difficult to achieve if the PLA are able to capitalize on their system of systems fires/sensor/air dominance.

It's possible that in the initial phases, some ROC missiles are able to leak through PLA air and missile defenses, but that's just part of fighting a modern war. It is the ability of both sides to prosecute targets on each side at scale, precision, and conducting repeat strikes which matters and that's unlikely to change much to be relevant for ROC warfighting plans.
OK, so basically for them to even try to slip a few shots through is totally stupid. It's basically like a 110lb crackhead slipping a few stray punches and scratches on the police when there's 6 cops on top of him during an arrest. It's only gonna make things a lot worse for him.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Yeah, but intimidation factor means that ROC will absolutely not be throwing any first punches and will only be responding to them, which means they will start swinging after they've taken haymakers to the face while PLA starts swinging fresh.

Not wrong, but my point is more that it's likely neither side will possess surprise and it's likely Taiwan will be able to preserve some of their offensive forces even after the initial PLA strikes.


OK, so basically for them to even try to slip a few shots through is totally stupid. It's basically like a 110lb crackhead slipping a few stray punches and scratches on the police when there's 6 cops on top of him during an arrest. It's only gonna make things a lot worse for him.

I don't think it's stupid -- it actually makes sense.
After all they already possess some of those offensive systems like cruise missiles and a small number of ballistic missiles as well, and they lack any other role other than strike. Those systems are paid for, the crew are already trained for that mission.

Both sides should probably anticipate the other will conduct simultaneous "offensive" and "defensive" missions at the same time, and for Taiwan to try and let off some of their missiles against PLA high value targets to try and diminish PLA capabilities somewhat if they are lucky. From the pov of the ROC military it's not like they would expect the PLA to be acting with restraint just because they're not conducting offensive missions of their own.
(If the ROC military conducted deliberate strikes against civilian targets then that may change things, but that's not what we're talking about).


Considering the PLA's reference threat is to defend against strikes conducted by US forces, defending against strikes from the ROC military would be relatively simple.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Not wrong, but my point is more that it's likely neither side will possess surprise and it's likely Taiwan will be able to preserve some of their offensive forces even after the initial PLA strikes.
OK
I don't think it's stupid -- it actually makes sense.
After all they already possess some of those offensive systems like cruise missiles and a small number of ballistic missiles as well, and they lack any other role other than strike. Those systems are paid for, the crew are already trained for that mission.

Both sides should probably anticipate the other will conduct simultaneous "offensive" and "defensive" missions at the same time, and for Taiwan to try and let off some of their missiles against PLA high value targets to try and diminish PLA capabilities somewhat if they are lucky. From the pov of the ROC military it's not like they would expect the PLA to be acting with restraint just because they're not conducting offensive missions of their own.
(If the ROC military conducted deliberate strikes against civilian targets then that may change things, but that's not what we're talking about).
I think it's absolutely stupid for the reason I outlined above. The more they roll over, the easier it will be for everyone. The more they resist the harder we have to hit them. When being arrested, follow orders and cooperate with the police; there's no level of dick-headery including swinging at the officers, that will make them say, "Fuck it; it's too hard. Let's just leave him alone." You're only making the difference between being peacefully arrested and being killed.
Considering the PLA's reference threat is to defend against strikes conducted by US forces, defending against strikes from the ROC military would be relatively simple.
Absolutely. We're training to kill demons, not terribly worried about rat bites.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
OK

I think it's absolutely stupid for the reason I outlined above. The more they roll over, the easier it will be for everyone. The more they resist the harder we have to hit them. When being arrested, follow orders and cooperate with the police; there's no level of dick-headery including swinging at the officers, that will make them say, "Fuck it; it's too hard. Let's just leave him alone." You're only making the difference between being peacefully arrested and being killed.

Ultimately it is not about what each side "should" do but rather what each side is "capable" of doing.

It's technically not impossible that the ROC military just folds after the initial exchange of fires, but it would be prudent for the PLA to assume that they would try to fight with resolve and will in accordance with the capabilities they possess, and thus the PLA would carry out their own preparations and strategies accordingly.


Putting it another way, it should be assumed that all parties in a conflict have high resolve and believe they are just in their cause and are willing to fight and die for it, until proven otherwise. For observers, it means we shouldn't simply assume one side will just fold after losing the first one or two rounds, but rather to assume each side's requirement is at minimum to destroy the other side's ability to wage war, militarily act, or resist with arms.
 
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