Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

otester said:

PAC-3 supposedly has better PK vs. BMs but has a significantly reduced range.

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The Patriot upgrade is just the firing launchers, tracking systems etc. The missiles will still be the same so they should have the same range - the PAC-3 missiles are what reduces the range.

Plus I think theres some misunderstanding. Against incoming missiles PAC-3 has a shorter range but I think against aircraft they might not be quite so restricted.

Mr T said:

The Patriot upgrade is just the firing launchers, tracking systems etc. The missiles will still be the same so they should have the same range - the PAC-3 missiles are what reduces the range.

Plus I think theres some misunderstanding. Against incoming missiles PAC-3 has a shorter range but I think against aircraft they might not be quite so restricted.

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From the sources I looked it seems the short range may have only taken PAC-3 missile vs. BMs, is there any way to confirm that a longer range is possible against aircraft? Since the canisters are smaller on the PAC-3 than the PAC-2.

Sky Bow (TK-1) SAM is basically licensed US Patriot system technology, CIST paid Raytheon (maker of MIM-104 Patriot) $1.1 billion dollars for the components and technology transfer. TK-2 and TK-3 are further improvements, toward a domestic "missile shield" program. Here's a pic of TK-3:



MIM-104 Patriot PAC2 mobile launcher carried 4 missiles, versus PAC3 carried up to 16. The PAC3 missiles are smaller and with shorter range, but allowed the system to quad-pack in separate containers like this:



Missile defense is one of very few areas where the ROC military has invested decent amount of funds in. With Patriot and Sky Bow systems, they're working toward an effective ABM shield. At least the TK-1/2/3 systems are locally built and provides local jobs. I wonder what the potential of adopting TK missiles for naval use is? The Russians did it with S-300's.

Patriot and TK SAM is only one aspect of air defense. You also need medium and short range SAM, MANPADs, CIWS, AA guns, etc. At the infantry level, ROC Army and Marine's air defense capability could use a boost.

The FIM-92 Stinger Block II upgrade status is currently unknown. This is another area where ROC defense industry could invest in. A new updated MANPAD missile built with domestic and imported technologies. The missile can be adopted for ground to air, ground to ground, air to air, and naval use.

adeptitus said:

Sky Bow (TK-1) SAM is basically licensed US Patriot system technology, CIST paid Raytheon (maker of MIM-104 Patriot) $1.1 billion dollars for the components and technology transfer.

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Aha I see.


The long range Aster 30 looks best for naval defense though imo.

In this post we'll explore ROCN's domestic warship & aircraft building possibilities.

Under current political realities, it's very unlikely that the ROCN can import warships and naval weapons from foreign suppliers other than the US. European suppliers are willing to provide certain components, such as engines, electronics, sensors, etc., but items like Aster SAM, and even RIM-116 (US-German product) are out of reach. The US, being cautious about maintaining the status quo, will only provide limited defensive armaments and munitions to ROC.

Taiwan CSBC Corp had license built 8 OH Perry class FFG's in 1990's, the last one completed in 2002. Both Australia and Turkey have developed upgrade programs for their OH Perry class ships. The upgrade adds an 8-cel Mk.41 VLS (for quad-packed ESSM) in front of Mk.13 launcher, and the Mk.13 launcher itself to handle SM-2MR and Harpoon SSM's. Here's a pic of Mk.41 VLS on HMAS Sydney:



The Australian upgrade ran into various technical problems, but they're spending the time and effort to fix it. If ROCN opt to follow this example, they'd benefit from Australian and Turkish experience and not reinvent the wheel. The ROCN OH Perry ships are fairly new, unlike the Knox (40 years old) and Kidd (30 years old). Plus they were built with longer hulls, so hull-extensions aren't necessary.

Should the US agree to export the upgrade components, ROCN OH Perry class FFG's could carry up to 40 x SM-2 rounds (or other missiles) in the Mk.13 launcher, plus 8 x 4 = 32 ESSM in the 8-cel VLS. Combined with upgraded sensors, it'd improve ROCN AAW capability with existing fleet.

If the upgrade is too expensive, if the US is unwilling to export ESSM, the 8-cel VLS can still be installed and loaded with SM-2MR SAM (or other munitions, such as VL-ASROC) as an incremental upgrade.

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In early 1990's, the ROCN had considered building its own Aegis warship under the Tien Dan program. The original plan was to install AN/SPY-1F on 4 enlarged OH Perry hull, built by CSBC. The plan was later abandoned due to technical uncertainties.

Moving forward, European navies have successfully integrated the Aegis system on platforms such as the Fridtjof Nasen class FFG (5,290 tons loaded), and the Alvaro de Bazan class FFG (6,250 tons loaded).



I'd like to see this plan revived, for construction of 4 x 5,000 - 6,000 ton displacement AAW FFG's, at the cost of no more than $4 to $5 billion USD. The Europeans already did their work on figuring out how to integrate the various systems with US input, so again, it's not reinventing the wheel.

The basic parameters of the ship is AN/SPY-1D or 1F sensors, "export" grade Aegis combat management system from US, 4 x 8 to 6 x 8 Mk.41 VLS cels, main gun, CIWS gun, torpedoes, 8 x SSM, ASW helicopter, sonar/decoy, etc.

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In the event that the US refuse to export advanced ship technology and Aegis sensors/systems, the ROCN might want to consider "plan B" with its own AAW ship. Some of you will think I'm completely nuts here, basically I'm suggesting a ROCN version of the PLAN 051C. Instead of S-300/SA-N-6, ROCN will use naval version of TK-2/3 SAM, TC-2 SAM, and HF-2/3 SSM, along with licensed copies of phased-array radar system from Lockheed Martian (currently used for TK systems).



The ship's displacement will be 5,000 to 6,000 tons, with 4x8 or 6x8 square-lid type VLS for TK-2/3 naval VL-SAM in front, 2 x 8 cel naval TC-2 VL-SAM along the smoke stack, and 2 x 4 ce HF-2/3 SSM in center. There would be sufficient space in the aft deck for helicopter/UAV hanger, unlike 051C. The ship's primary role will be AAW but still carry decent ASW systems. It'd also have the usual main gun, CIWS, torpedoes, helicopter, etc.

Afterwards I'd suggest licensing Patriot PAC3 technology for newer & smaller TK-X SAM that could be quad-packed like existing PAC3 systems. This way the limited number of VL cels on the ship can allocate some for quad-packed TK-X like ESSM. if you license the technology for local manufacture, you gain some reference-engineering capability in case of arms embargo.

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A bigger FAC/Missile Boat

The Kuang Hua VI class FAC is small (180 tons) and lightly armed. OK for hit and run, but not much use beyond that. I'd like to see a larger FAC with 400-500 ton displacement, armed with Oto 76mm or Bofors 57mm Mk3 gun in front, 4 x SSM, and a medium RCWS in the back that could be used for 20mm-40mm AC or AC + missile mount.


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ROCAF

The F-5 E/F are facing retirement, and F-16 C/D purchase is delayed. I'd suggest upgrading existing fleet of IDF to C/D standard as an interim solution.



AIDC had offered to manufacture IDF LIFT variants for $16 million each. Cheap, but this is really not where they should be heading. They should revive the older upgrade projects, such as the more powerful TFE-1042-70A or GE J101/SF engines (or better), increased fuel (CFTs?) & payload capacity, and build ~120 new fighter aircraft (IDF-E/F? IDF-XL?). After the new aircraft enters service, the older A/B and C/D variants can be delegated to combat trainer duty.

Recently, I read an article about Korea's KF-X program (120 aircraft) estimates being placed at $10 billion:


This is quite a number and would probably give Taiwan's ADF program pause. I think the ROC should allocate funds to ADF R&D and feasibility study. If the US won't supply advanced combat jets in the future, then ROC has no choice but the do it the "IDF" way. Assuming cost is similar to Korean estimates, 120 jets at $10 billion comes out to $83.3 million each.

Nice pics man, I agree that we should upgrade the Navy and the Army. But I think we should go ahead and purchase new arms for the Air Force, additionally include the upgrade for the IDF.

@adeptitus: With your weapons knowledge, join the army! They'll need you in weapons procurement, because the people there are to politicalised.

Taiwan and the US could sign a contract for the sale of about US$11 billion in arms packages by the end of this year, breaking a hiatus on the US sale of weapons systems to Taiwan, said Rupert Hammond-Chambers, the president of the US-Taiwan Business Council.

Joseph Wu (吳釗燮), the nation’s outgoing representative to Washington, said he had not heard anything from administration officials about the possibility of movement on the arms sales, although he had heard such reports from “non-administration sources.” He expects the sales to go through “eventually.”

Echoing comments over the past week by the incoming Taiwanese representative to Washington, Jason Yuan (袁健生), as well as council chairman and former US deputy secretary of defense Paul Wolfowitz, Hammond-Chambers told the Taipei Times that his “optimistic expectation” was that the sales could start to move within weeks.

With a key shortcut in the process and speedy work by the administration and Congress, the Letter of Offer and Acceptance could be signed by the end of December, capturing the budget allocations approved by the Legislative Yuan in December last year.

Hammond-Chambers said that his prognostication was not based on personal assurances by the State Department, which has held back the deals, or congressional aides, but was his “speculation.”

The council’s members include US defense industry giants that make the weapons systems the US sells to Taiwan and are well connected through the Washington establishment. Moreover, Wolfowitz, when he was the No. 2 man at the US Department of Defense, was known to be very favorable to the arms sales program.

Wu told the Taipei Times that all he had heard from the administration was “the issue is still in the interagency process” — the same wording as that used by a State Department official when asked at the daily press briefing this week.

“That statement seems to be quite uniform,” Wu said. “That means if it’s in the process, the process is going to go through eventually.”

Hammond-Chambers outlined a potential timetable if Washington wanted to finalize the sale before the end of the year.

The State Department could unfreeze the sales early next month, after US President George W. Bush returns from attending the opening of the Beijing Olympic Games on Aug. 8 to Aug. 9. But with Congress scheduled to adjourn on Aug. 9 for its month-long summer break, Hammond-Chambers expects the administration to start the process of notifying the lawmakers of the potential sale before Congress adjourns.

To speed things along, the administration would have to negotiate with the congressional committees responsible for arms sales to waive the pre-consultation process, which would permit the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) — the Pentagon unit that handles foreign arms sales — to officially notify Congress of the sales when Congress returns on Sept. 8.

Congress would then have 30 days to vet the sale and return it to the DSCA in early October, giving the agency and Taiwan three months to nail down the deal in time to capture the budget money.

Most of the contracts have already been negotiated, and there is little of the contract language left to work out, Hammond-Chambers said.

“The framework is in place ... It’s more the bureaucratic time it takes to process the paperwork on both sides, that’s the most time consuming,” he said.

Hammond-Chambers and Wolfowitz have just returned from a four-day trip to Taipei where they met top officials, including President Ma Ying-jeou (馬英九), Vice President Vincent Siew (蕭萬長), Premier Liu Chao-shiuan (劉兆玄) and National Security Council Secretary-General Su Chi (蘇起). All of them said they wanted to buy the frozen arms packages, Hammond-Chambers said.

“Everybody was absolutely on message,” he said.

If the sales freeze is lifted, it would come after a broad-based and very public chorus of criticism of the freeze in Washington by the business council, congressional supporters of Taiwan, conservative think tanks, the media and defense contractor lobbyists.

The council, the most strident critic of the freeze, has taken a different tack, Hammond-Chambers said.

It was a “sense that we as an organization needed to take a more positive tone toward the ultimate outcome of all of this,” he said.

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More positive news than before. I guess it's "watch this space"!

kliu0 said:

Nice pics man, I agree that we should upgrade the Navy and the Army. But I think we should go ahead and purchase new arms for the Air Force, additionally include the upgrade for the IDF.

@adeptitus: With your weapons knowledge, join the army! They'll need you in weapons procurement, because the people there are to politicalised.

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We're just armchair generals here. In real life military procurement is a long and costly process. If it was that easy, both PLA and ROC military would be equipped with better looking gear already, LoL.

M240Gunner said:

Yeah it takes 50 years and billions just to get new weapons in service.:coffee:

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Well... it is taking 20+ years to replace the CH-124 Sea Kings in Canadian service and it costed more than half a billion dollars in cancellation fees and a additional 4 billion dollars to actually buy the helicopters...

Hopefully it will take less than 20 years
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Legislators visiting Washington to push for arms deal

CNA
Monday, July 28, 2008



TAIPEI, Taiwan -- Five Taiwanese legislators departed for the United States yesterday for a visit, m

ainly aimed at pushing the U.S. to carry through on a previously agreed-on arms deals.

The five members of the Legislative Yuan Foreign Affairs and National Defense Committee, led by ruling Kuomintang Legislator Lin Yu-fang, are scheduled to visit Washington, D.C. July 28 to 31, where they will call on officials from the U.S. Department of State, the Department of Defense, National Security Council and the American Institute in Taiwan to amplify Taiwan's desire to procure defensive weaponry systems from the U.S.

During their four-day stay in D.C., the lawmakers are also scheduled to meet with experts from the Center for Strategic and International Studies, the Brookings Institution and other think tanks to further promote Taiwan's stance on procuring U.S. arms, Lin told the CNA prior to departure.

President Ma Ying-jeou reiterated during interviews with several media outlets recently that Taiwan's policy of acquiring U.S. weapons systems -- including anti-tank missiles, Apache helicopters, Patriot PAC-3 anti-missile batteries, diesel-powered submarines, P3C anti-submarine aircraft and sea-launched Harpoon missiles -- remains unchanged.

Ma stressed that "Taiwan's purchase of U.S. military weapons should proceed as projected and as quickly as possible," but when the procurement plans were referred to the State Department for approval, there were some dissenting voices.

Washington has reportedly considered freezing congressional notification of potential new arms sales to Taiwan for the duration of the George W. Bush administration, in part because of frustration over political bickering in Taiwan over an arms package that Washington approved in 2001.

The legislators are visiting Washington on the heels of Legislative Yuan President Wang Jin-pyng, who is currently on a nine-day trip to two U.S. cities.

After visiting D.C., the legislators are scheduled to fly to Phoenix, Arizona July 31, where they will visit the Luke Air Force Base and meet Taiwanese jet fighter pilots and co-pilots who are currently receiving flight training there, according to Lin.

From Phoenix, the lawmakers will travel to Los Angeles, where they are scheduled to meet officials from Taiwan's representative office in L.A., and to San Diego, where they will pay a courtesy call to a U.S. Navy base.

The other four legislators on the trip are Liu Sheng-liang, Shuai Hua-min, Liao Wan-ju and Chou Shou-hsun.