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I don't take offence - I've talked to him on occasion and found he knows a great deal.
I didn't coin the term - that's how the three were generally referred to after 2001.
Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter Gollevainen
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I don't take offence - I've talked to him on occasion and found he knows a great deal.
I didn't coin the term - that's how the three were generally referred to after 2001.
D
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Apparently a further US$100 million was set aside that could be approved for the submarines later on in the year. Funds were also made available for the F-16 (some frozen), AGM-84 and Apache purchases. The HF-IIE project was also kept going (some funds frozen).
Far from it. Remember in the past, the US canceled proposals by foreign countries to buy diesel subs made in the US after seriously entertaining these proposals which reached to the highest levels. The list includes Australia, Greece, Israel, and South Korea. Each has reached or past the same stage where the legislature has granted funds approval leaving the ball in the US court. Tentative agreements have in fact been reached with several companies.
But in the end, guess what happened. Norman Polmar has some details in his book, Cold War Submarines.
But in the end, guess what happened. Norman Polmar has some details in his book, Cold War Submarines.
No. Rickover had long since died when those decisions were made. Remember he died in 1982, and about everyone of those diesel sub decisions were made long after he was gone. Rickover sure has plenty of top level disciples and clones, but more importantly he has many more disciples of the way he fights his budget wars.
Thanks..I learn something new everyday...
We all will just have to wait and see what finally happens with these ROCN SSKs..to be built and designed in the US.
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Taiwan's isolation is a special card it can play in this matter. Countries like Australia, Greece and South Korea had various options open - at the very least they could get direct technological assistance when making their own, if not have them made for them by France, Germany, etc.
On the other hand Taiwan can only rely on the US if it doesn't want to risk throwing good money after bad on a local build. If Washington backtracks on its promise then it's arguable whether it might have ever helped Taiwan if attacked by China (which is a crucial chance, even not a certainty). On the other hand if it really wants Taiwan to have a credible defence (and avoid the need for it to get involved) then the Pentagon and White House will ensure that it holds up its side of the deal.
A good indication of how things may go is whether Electric Boat are given the nod (whether in private or public) to undertake part/all of the R&D. Though other companies would bid for the work, Electric Boat not being able to take part could demonstrate a hostility that would cause severe delays, if not total failure. On the other hand, if it can participate then things are looking quite reasonable.
The isolation card has been there since 2001. But the USN knows about this from the start and even up to now, hasn't given an approval sign.
The fear is that if the US starts building diesel subs again, the USN may be forced by congressional pressure, to buy diesel subs. That's why the USN does not even BUY diesel subs from Germany, Sweden, etchetera, for its own Red Flag Aggressor purposes. Everyone knows that to win the budget battles, you need to always present only the most expensive foot forward. For NASA it is the space shuttle. For the USAF, the F-22. For the USN, the AEGIS destroyers and the nuclear subs. You can't let them show a chink in your armor, because one thing leads to another.
It seems pretty okay for the USN to completely lose the post war export sub market, which has sold well over 50 submarines, a large portion of which were Type 209 and to Germany's pockets, just to hold this all nuclear sub position. Losing the Seawolf class in the budget war is a big blow to the Navy, they're going to lay the line down on the Virginia class.
The nuclear submariners can easily show reasons blocking the ROC sub sale. One the 8 subs probably won't matter much, the ports would be so blockaded anyway and so deeply outnumbered by the PRC subs they won't stand a chance anyway. More Virginia class subs stationed in the West Pacific like Guam or Okinawa would present a much better chance for Taiwan's defense. Second, Taiwan herself is not considered an entity that is well trusted and there are many that believe that sharing technology to Taiwan means eventually passing it to the PRC itself. Part of this distrust also has a streak of racism in it, and this distrust pops up in matters like the Wen Ho Lee case.
In any case this leads to a counter alternative, that providing if allowed, the USN is going to pour through the new diesel sub design to make sure certain classified technologies are not going to be passed to Taiwan, and these are the secret "stuff" for the sonar, sensors and most of all the quieting technologies. The end result is that the new sub won't really perform that well, despite the marketing and mouth hype. The downgrade will also serve the nuclear faction well, because the sub's performance won't be a threat to nuclear submarines, and the USN will keep its Virginia sub budget.
The fear is that if the US starts building diesel subs again, the USN may be forced by congressional pressure, to buy diesel subs. That's why the USN does not even BUY diesel subs from Germany, Sweden, etchetera, for its own Red Flag Aggressor purposes. Everyone knows that to win the budget battles, you need to always present only the most expensive foot forward. For NASA it is the space shuttle. For the USAF, the F-22. For the USN, the AEGIS destroyers and the nuclear subs. You can't let them show a chink in your armor, because one thing leads to another.
It seems pretty okay for the USN to completely lose the post war export sub market, which has sold well over 50 submarines, a large portion of which were Type 209 and to Germany's pockets, just to hold this all nuclear sub position. Losing the Seawolf class in the budget war is a big blow to the Navy, they're going to lay the line down on the Virginia class.
The nuclear submariners can easily show reasons blocking the ROC sub sale. One the 8 subs probably won't matter much, the ports would be so blockaded anyway and so deeply outnumbered by the PRC subs they won't stand a chance anyway. More Virginia class subs stationed in the West Pacific like Guam or Okinawa would present a much better chance for Taiwan's defense. Second, Taiwan herself is not considered an entity that is well trusted and there are many that believe that sharing technology to Taiwan means eventually passing it to the PRC itself. Part of this distrust also has a streak of racism in it, and this distrust pops up in matters like the Wen Ho Lee case.
In any case this leads to a counter alternative, that providing if allowed, the USN is going to pour through the new diesel sub design to make sure certain classified technologies are not going to be passed to Taiwan, and these are the secret "stuff" for the sonar, sensors and most of all the quieting technologies. The end result is that the new sub won't really perform that well, despite the marketing and mouth hype. The downgrade will also serve the nuclear faction well, because the sub's performance won't be a threat to nuclear submarines, and the USN will keep its Virginia sub budget.